The bad stuff

[biffvernon]

This Duggan story is pretty old news now Biff although I suspect there is a lot more to come, especially as Duggan's gangland associations are examined more closely.

Oh no. This is new this afternoon. The BBC story I linked to is dated 17.30 this afternoon and this article from the Guardian is Friday 12 August 2011 17.47 BST

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/mark-duggan-ipcc-misled-media

The media, and thus the rest of us, where told one story, which the police are now admitting was false. Many people, including myself, suspected as much from day one but it has taken eight days before the police admitted it.

 

[middi]

There is absolutely nothing wrong about individuals making shed loads of money as long as it is within the law as existing.
All the money they make is of no use to them unless they spend it thus creating shed loads of jobs which keep the less fortunate, or enterprising, employed to make all the goodies that the so called " fat cats" want to endulge in.

What worries me ( apart from the fact that I am not an economist) is the fact that this money making society of ours appears to be totally depending on economic growth for our way of life to be sustained.

EXCUSE ME !!!!!, but, what the hell is going to happen to us when growth cannot be sustained ( natural resources and all that)., or are we intending in becoming all "fat cats" hoping that the poor somalians or some other poor deprived nation will supply the labour to serve our needs.

SOrry if I am being naive but this formula does not sound right to me for it to be sustained without resorting to the "survival of the fittest" and massive global conflict. ( maybe the recent discontent amongst the youth is the uderlaying factor of things to come)

Ok, I don not have a better idea . Still worrying though.
Whilst these " riots" cannot be condoned let us spare a thought to the fact that the perpretators are not the only ones that are out to grab what they can today without sparing a thought to what is going to happen tomorrow.

( and peace to you all !!! )

Middi

 

[Flyfisher]

I know that MPs are supposed to set us an example, but surely just because some of them fiddled their expenses it doesn't give the rest of us carte blanche to indulge in shady dealings?

Exactly. It's a funny old excuse for a bit of rioting, looting, arson and murdering that it's somehow justified because the PM once trashed a restaurant somewhere (and paid for all the resulting damage as I understand things**).

Still, I guess such excuses can be duly tested in a court of law in the coming weeks.



** my knowledge of the Bullingdon Club being rather tenuous to say the least.

 

[Flyfisher]

Ok, I do not have a better idea . Still worrying though.

I don't think anyone has any better ideas. Lots of different 'isms' have been tried but I can't immediately think of one that's clearly superior to our prevailing one. It may be far from ideal but it may also be the best that's practically achievable.

And, yes, it is still worrying though.

 

[biffvernon]

And those who say that the looters have jobs which do not give self-esteem, security, a place in society nor hope for the future......... well I wouldn't mind being an Olympics Ambassadeur

Or one of our brave boys just returned from Afghanistan:

Gunner Liam Bretherton, 20, faces dismissal from the Army after walking into a guitar shop with a valuable Gibson Les Paul just 12 hours after a flagship music store in Manchester had been ransacked by looters.
He was arrested when the owner of the shop became suspicious and checked the serial number on the instrument. He then locked him in the shop until the police arrived.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...harged-with-burglary-remanded-in-custody.html

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Oh dear, so here we are, eight days after the event and now the police admit they 'may have misled journalists'.

Or to be more accurate (we know what store you place in facts Biff :wink: ), the Independent Police Complaints Commission has made the admission, not the police.

It is very important that the IPCC is not the police, in much the same way as we have an independent prosecution service, and an indpendent judiciary. That independence is a fundamental safeguard in our consitutional settlement.

[EDIT: Just seen Graham has made this point already]

 

[FamilyWiggs]

The media, and thus the rest of us, where told one story, which the police are now admitting was false. Many people, including myself, suspected as much from day one but it has taken eight days before the police admitted it.

Do we know they knew it was" false" when they told it Biff - you seem to be suggesting they did. That would make it a deliberate lie - is that what you're saying?

I am happy for now to accept that it was clearly a confusing, dangerous and fast-moving situation which involved multiple shots, police weapons and an illegal handgun. A bullet was lodged in a police officer's radio. In those circumstances it is entirely possible to believe in good faith that a number of things happened which may mor may not be correct. Just think how common it is for bystanders to differ on basic things like the number of shots fired in these kinds of events.

What we can't get away from is that a known gangster carrying an illegal handgun in public was shot during a planned arrest operation.

The veracity of the rest of the circumstances will be determined by the IPCC in the fullness of time.

I wonder how much the pressure from the media and those quick to accuse the police of "shooting a bloke in a minicab in broad daylight" leads the police or IPCC to make statemnts about these kinds of events before they can be entirely certain of their facts?

 

[Flyfisher]

As Biff mentioned that 'flagship music store' in Manchester, someone on a music forum I frequent, who works at Dawsons, posted his account of the destruction - and I use that word advisedly because it seems there were more goods destroyed than actually stolen, and many of the instruments that were taken were later recovered in the streets, smashed and abandoned. I guess the rioters were not musicians.

Still you'd have to be pretty stupid to loot a pricey guitar in a highly publicised riot one day and try to sell it to another music shop the next.

But at least that person had stolen something of value, unlike all those looting a Poundland store in Peckham. :roll:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

There is absolutely nothing wrong about individuals making shed loads of money as long as it is within the law as existing.

Yep - the thing about capitalism is that it drives people to suceed and we all gain from their endeavours. The distribution of talent and effort is not equal, so why should we expect the reward to be? Two examples from the last century:

Capitalism drove Henry Ford to take your horse and replace it with a tractor.
It turned Bill Gates into the richest man in the world - in return he gave us untold functionality in computer software, the benefits to humanity of this are incalulable. He is now doing his best to spread his untold riches around the world in charitable endeavours.

 

[biffvernon]

Oh dear, so here we are, eight days after the event and now the police admit they 'may have misled journalists'.

Or to be more accurate (we know what store you place in facts Biff :wink: ), the Independent Police Complaints Commission has made the admission, not the police.

It is very important that the IPCC is not the police, in much the same way as we have an independent prosecution service, and an indpendent judiciary. That independence is a fundamental safeguard in our consitutional settlement.

[EDIT: Just seen Graham has made this point already]

Yes, you are quite right. There is a clear distinction, though probably lost in the street melee. The important point is that the Police (not the IPCC) had plenty of opportunity to correct press reports, or even give a correct account of events before the press reports appeared. It was the poor communications in the first 24 hours that are blamed by some for the triggering of the riots. There is a very close parallel with the reports that Charles de Menezes fled the police, vaulting over the ticket barriers at the tube station before being killed by the police. Only later did it emerge that there was no truth in the account and that the police made no attempt to stop the story, which they knew to be false. There was a similar catalogue of lies and evasions related to the death of Ian Tomlinson. Never mind the other ~800 deaths in police custody over the last 20 years.

My position has not nothing to do with defending a wrong doer. Unless the police obey the law and are seen to obey the law, always acting with integrity and honesty, the public will not trust them. It is then a very short step to the breakdown of law and order, which is exactly what we've seen. We have recently seen the top two Met officers resign, the number three having recently left under a cloud and their top PR man suspended. Yesterday we saw a young man with no previous convictions given a six month sentence for theft of some bottles of water while an MP convicted of an £8k fraud was given 4 months. You wonder why people go hmmm?

 

[Pford75]

Biff - I happen to agree with you on the shocking difference in sentencing between the youth who stole the water and the MPs.....but I don't suggest the youth should have got off more lightly....the MPs should have been punished more severely.

On your other point however....

The important point is that the Police (not the IPCC) had plenty of opportunity to correct press reports

There is a very close parallel with the reports that Charles de Menezes fled the police

No, no, no. The Police are supposed to remain silent until the IPCC has concluded it's investigation. It seems to me that they can't win - Had they been issuing statements about the lads criminal past and shady connections, they would have (quite rightly) been accused of trying to influence the media. Instead, they kept silent and are lambasted by people like you for not correcting the press. The Police were quite rightly criticised for trying to 'brief' around the de Menezes tragedy - therefore, they went to some lengths to say nothing around this incident (which is why the baying mob originally got outraged - because the Police would not discuss the incident).

AIUI, here is what is known about the original incident - let's wait and see what the IPCC concludes:

1. A man was a criminal suspect with Police intelligence linking him to violent crime
2. Armed officers were sent to intercept him (indicating that the Police believed he may be armed)
3. A Police stop occurred, and the man was shot (presumably by Police)
4. It is suggested that the first shot passed through this mans arm and hit another policemans radio
5. A second shot was fired (presumably by police) and killed the man
6. There was a 'non police' gun found at the scene (presumably the man's)


If (and I emphasize the if), it is subsequently proven that the man was armed, then I am afraid that I have no sympathy. Ideally, Police should always seek to arrest armed suspects without using their firearms, but I can perfectly accept that in a highly charged situation such as an arrest when everyone has a gun, there is a chance of a fatality. I presume that if it is shown that the gun belonged to the man, his family will look differently on their 'He wouldn't do something like this' statements?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

To be honest, neither police, IPCC or the family should be putting anything out to the press until the full facts are known. It is the hotheaded jumping to conclusions that the police must have done wrong that inflames the situation, and no doubt motivaates the police to justify their actions in an early attempt to reassure people.

There are bad police, just like every profession. But the overwhelming majority are good and decent and well trained. This is just as true for the armed police in this case, as well as those doing 18 hour shifts this week to protect out streets, homes and businesses.

 

[biffvernon]

Yes but this is the story that many people got:

The feds are chasing me..
Last words of 'gangsta' who was shot by cops
By ANTHONY FRANCE and CHRIS POLLARD
Published: 06 Aug 2011

A GUNMAN killed in a shootout with police had texted his girlfriend minutes earlier to say: "The feds are following me."
Suspected gangster Mark Duggan, 29, fired a handgun at an armed cop, whose life was saved when the bullet hit his radio.

The officer returned fire with his Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun - blasting dad-of-five Duggan twice in the face before slumping to the ground.

Text ... girlfriend Semone
Duggan, known by the street name Starrish Mark, was a so-called gangsta member of North London's Tottenham Man Dem gang, which has links to Jamaica's ruthless Yardies.

Cops from the Met Police Operation Trident, which tackles gun crime in London's black community, had him under surveillance amid fears he was about to avenge the killing of his rapper cousin Kevin Easton, 23.

Spot the errors. That was the report by Anthony France and Chris Pollard writing in the Sun (now who is it that owns that newspaper?) on Saturday 6th August. It would have been seen by a lot of people a few hours before the riots.

It's worth looking at the actual report: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-feds-are-following-me.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

 

[Lime]

The shooting demonstrate too clearly (to me) how far apart young and old peoples' attitudes differ.
All of the young people I know think the police were wrong, full stop.
Society is such that they could not careless what "oldies" say and see older people as part of their problem.

 

[skier-hughes]

Yes but this is the story that many people got:

The feds are chasing me..
Last words of 'gangsta' who was shot by cops
By ANTHONY FRANCE and CHRIS POLLARD
Published: 06 Aug 2011

A GUNMAN killed in a shootout with police had texted his girlfriend minutes earlier to say: "The feds are following me."
Suspected gangster Mark Duggan, 29, fired a handgun at an armed cop, whose life was saved when the bullet hit his radio.

The officer returned fire with his Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun - blasting dad-of-five Duggan twice in the face before slumping to the ground.

Text ... girlfriend Semone
Duggan, known by the street name Starrish Mark, was a so-called gangsta member of North London's Tottenham Man Dem gang, which has links to Jamaica's ruthless Yardies.

Cops from the Met Police Operation Trident, which tackles gun crime in London's black community, had him under surveillance amid fears he was about to avenge the killing of his rapper cousin Kevin Easton, 23.

Spot the errors. That was the report by Anthony France and Chris Pollard writing in the Sun (now who is it that owns that newspaper?) on Saturday 6th August. It would have been seen by a lot of people a few hours before the riots.

It's worth looking at the actual report: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...-feds-are-following-me.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

So surely you should be blaming the sun, news international and rupert murdoch, not the Police for all the misinformation???????????? :roll:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

So surely you should be blaming the sun, news international and rupert murdoch, not the Police for all the misinformation???????????? :roll:

But that's not what the Left do, Graham.

They blame the corrupt and oppressive police, the government, the Establishment, capitalism, greed, lawnorder, poverty, inequalities, the unfeeling Right, and so on.

They are much slower to blame gangsters and criminals for their actions. Fair play to Ed Milliband, Diane Abbot and David Lammy though, who this week broke the mould and condemned criminality. It is starting to crack though... It is marked now though how the media is full of much handwringing from the liberal left about all the poverty/social causes of the rioting.

How quickly they seem to have forgotten this was simpy "shopping with violence" mixed with wanton arson.

 

[biffvernon]

So surely you should be blaming the sun, news international and rupert murdoch,

Of course, but here's the thing,

Met’s PR chief put on leave after allegation of gross misconduct

Director faces IPCC investigation after criticism over NOTW staff links
The chief of PR at the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) has been put on extended leave as he faces an allegation of gross misconduct believed to be related to the News of the World hacking scandal.

Dick Fedorcio, director of public affairs and internal communication for the Met, was criticised in a government select committee last month for hiring Neil Wallis, a former NOTW journalist, as a media consultant.

when it comes to police communicating with the public the relationship with the Murdoch press is a tangled web.

 

[biffvernon]

So surely you should be blaming the sun, news international and rupert murdoch, not the Police for all the misinformation???????????? :roll:

But that's not what the Left do, Graham.

They blame the corrupt and oppressive police, the government, the Establishment, capitalism, greed, lawnorder, poverty, inequalities, the unfeeling Right, and so on.

Eh? The Left don't blame Murdoch? You on a different planet?

 

[biffvernon]

This: https://www.facebook.com/notes/joe-best/inside-the-minds-of-londons-rioters/10150372770132588

is a lengthy read and the spelling and grammar are not of the standard acceptable on this august forum( :wink: ) but is, nevertheless, worthy of attention.

 

[Lime]

IME logic is the first casualty of right-wing thought.