The bad stuff

[Nigel Watts]

The report I read earlier said that the dead man had pulled out the gun but not fired it.

 

[LadyArowana]

The report I read earlier said that the dead man had pulled out the gun but not fired it.

So he was a possible zombie as well as a possible gangster then?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

The report I read earlier said that the dead man had pulled out the gun but not fired it.

So he was a possible zombie as well as a possible gangster then?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[skier-hughes]

excellent

 

[robgil]

I dont get it , how can they not know if the gun was fired or not? There would be traces all over the taxi cab and surely if they didnt hear it it didnt happen.
So what next , kid pulls out a plastic gun and the police shoot said kid dead because their ''rules of engagement'' allow them to do so?

 

[biffvernon]

how can they not know if the gun was fired or not? There would be traces all over the taxi cab and surely if they didnt hear it it didnt happen.

A very good question. Unfortunately the Met has a bad track-record of being economical with the truth after an incident. DeMenezes, Tomlinson, phone hacking, the resignation of the two top officers, it all adds up to deep mistrust. And I'm not even young, unemployed, black or hang about on street corners because I've nowhere else to go, so have never been hassled by the police.

 

[LadyArowana]

And I'm not even young, unemployed, black or hang about on street corners because I've nowhere else to go, so have never been hassled by the police.

Yes, you are a law abiding citizen.

Many years ago I was follwed by a group that fits the profile you describe. I stopped at a phone box thinking I should call the police, then decided it was paranoia on my part, that I should not "profile" in that way and so I chatted to a friend instead. They came out of a side street knocked me to the ground and stole my bag.

There are reasons why certain groups attract more attention than others. It seems to be politically incorrect to notice that. Maybe some of the ladies here will be happy to say that they feel equally uneasy to find themselves alone and followed by 3 female pensioners as by 3 teenage boys, maybe ..................

 

[Nigel Watts]

So what next , kid pulls out a plastic gun and the police shoot said kid dead because their ''rules of engagement'' allow them to do so?

The difference is that there was a context. The (now) dead man was a known gun criminal whom the police were specifically targeting in this operation. Shooting him dead without reasonable grounds to believe the policeman's own life would be in immediate danger (either because the (now) dead man had drawn his gun or had drawn and fired it) is clearly not acceptable.

Early reports of what happened could as easily be the result of genuine confusion as of a conspiracy to conceal the truth. It seems that the first bullet shot by the police went through the man's arm then hit another policemen, injuring him and lodging in his radio. It is quite possible that this freak occurrence was interpreted as a gunshot from the (now) dead man. This of course does not justify the initial shot from the police, but may explain why it was thought that the (now) dead man had fired his gun.

The enquiry will run its course and we will no doubt find out more sooner or later.

 

[Moo]

An interesting debate/set of conjectures, BUT -

There is still absolutely no excuse for the hideous behaviour that has been so graphically reported in the media.

 

[biffvernon]

We're all agreed there's absolutely no excuse for the hideous behaviour. That's easy. The hard part is finding an explanation, to better understand the phenomenon and then find the best course of action to avoid recurrence.

It's like a damp house. Oh! Damp. It must be rising damp. Inject the wall.

No, we need to understand why the house is damp, where the water in the wall is coming from and then devise a solution that will work without causing damage. We have to apply the same logical thinking, systematically, in many walks of life.

 

[Nigel Watts]

I agree Biff.

What strikes me when I visit my in-laws, who live in a quite prosperous suburb of Mumbai, is that like the prosperous pocket of Islington on whose fringe I live, rich and poor live closely to each other yet despite the wider income gulf, there is more interaction and interdependence between the two classes in the Indian city than in London. The richer Mumbaites depend on the goods and services they buy from their poorer neighbours, who in turn depend on the income they receive from providing them.

In London, by contrast, large sections of the urban poor have practically no contact with their near neighbours because they are not engaged in any economic activity. The welfare payments on which they depend neither give them any opportunity for such contact nor provide any positive incentive for good behaviour. Meanwhile the almost equally poor but hardworking, self-sufficient and law-abiding local shopkeepers and small businessmen - many of whom in my area are Turks and Kurds - feel a growing resentment that they are not being helped and protected as their livelihoods are threatened by the unrest.

The problem has been brewing for decades and has no obvious immediate solution. Throwing more money into walfare payments and replacing old school buildings with shiny new ones, as was done over the last decade or so, doesn't seem to have worked. I am not sure what will.

 

[d49xc]

We're all agreed there's absolutely no excuse for the hideous behaviour. That's easy. The hard part is finding an explanation, to better understand the phenomenon and then find the best course of action to avoid recurrence.

Not very difficult really.
Where have all the jobs gone for those of the population less blessed with academic and other abilities?

For example:
Llanwern Steel works in S.Wales employed in the 10000+ figure.
Oxford BL plant was around 10000 employed - no idea of current levels but anyway they are many contractors - sackable at a days notice.
What about the newspaper print works in London - they must have employed thousands
I worked in engineering....I can remember firms emplying 6000, now they employ around 1000. Were all the jobs lost on the shop floor. Far from it, computers in the offices in various guises removed whole swathes of staff.
All these jobs were not especially exciting - but they were jobs and gave struture to peoples lives and money in the bank.

Manufacturing in general went abroad so the opportunities for those on the shop floor etc to better themselves by moving up through the company into the office & sales areas dissapeared (ie effectively training/experience on the job). Next firms complained they couldn't find the staff having of course just destroyed the training route up in their own company. So they pinched/poached them or shipped them in from abroad which further discouraged any apprenticeships or training to take place as your freshly trained recuit merely hopped ship.

Meanwhile for those at the bottom of the pile with no opportunites, and no hope for any opportunities.........
All they see is people buying things on the 'never never' - ie credit cards.
Firms going bust leaving debts behind and seemingly getting away with it.
Banks (as they see it) getting millions while benefits and education grants are cut.

So what does one expect.....
They join gangs to get some structure in their lives and strength in numbers.
If I can go and get my telly and pay for it later by my credit card -----likewise it seems they are doing much the same and will pay for it in a different way.

 

[skier-hughes]

BBC just reported the first person to be convicted this morning was an employed teaching assistant - your guess is as good as mine as to what he's been teaching the young people.

 

[biffvernon]

Interesting observations from India, Nigel. There's a lot in that.

(But did you hear the reports from Karachi?

Thousands of people have died in ethnic violence since 2007

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14455431 )

And I guess we ought to listen to the voice from the London street: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4&feature=player_embedded#at=163

 

[Nigel Watts]

I guess we ought to listen to the voice from the London street

We should indeed listen to what ordinary Londoners are saying, but it would be wrong to assume or to imply that this voice on this street represented the only perspective.

Here's another one, for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SHKhvVjLIc

 

[Pford75]

Not very difficult really.
Where have all the jobs gone for those of the population less blessed with academic and other abilities?

This cannot be blamed on the lack of jobs - those animals who decided to rob a teenage boy in the street (whilst pretending to help him) did not do that because they had no job....they did it because they have no respect for their fellow human beings. As someone else said, many of those who indulged in looting and violence are gainfully employed.....they are just part of the "I want it now" culture and feel justified in taking from others (who are not necessarily any better off than them).

Many businesses which have been looted are sole traders, run by families who work every hour available to scrape a living - in many cases the 'unacademic' people you excuse....yet they built their businesses with hard work.

It is a myth that there are no jobs. Almost every McDonalds would employ someone right now....it's just too much like hard work for some (and before you condemn me...I financed myself through uni with 4 part time jobs, including McDonalds, cleaning offices and telesales). Feckless, workshy thugs want consumer goods but don't want to work for them.

 

[robgil]

No Jobs or no jobs worth having? Look at all the unskilled jobs in and around London for instance, could you live in London on 6 quid an hour? As the distribution of wealth gets more uneven i.e. the poor get poorer and the rich get richer people will no doubt get more and more peeved off.

The poor factory worker works for pittance so the rich person can buy the product he produces at a cheaper price thus saving them money.

 

[Merlin]

Having seen the news and read the thread on here, I wanted to stick my pennyworth in, but it would have been a rant "Grumpy Old Man" style and not constructive. So decided to rethink.

The State has 3 things to ensure:
1) Protect its people from Foreign invasion - The Armed Forces
2) Protect its people from domestic and foreign criminals - The Police and discipline
3) Protect its people from the Goverment - Democracy

If these fail, then we will end up with, either:
a) War
b) Civil Unrest
c) Dictatorship or Civil War

We are failing miserably on 2) at the moment. We need to bring back responsibility and discipline into our schools, families and societies. Unfortunately many of the role models that these young people look up to do not have responsibility and discipline.

Therein lies the problem.

 

[Flyfisher]

And I guess we ought to listen to the voice from the London street: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4&feature=player_embedded#at=163

. . . and, indeed, the voice from the Manchester street: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm

I especially appreciate the refreshing honesty of the fine young lad admitting that he could afford to buy the stuff he's looting but that he's doing it anyway because nobody can stop him. He also has no fear of being caught because nothing of any consequence will happen to him.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646.stm (the lad in question starts at 0:59).

 

[michael]

I think you’re probably right d49xc. Agriculture and then the vast factories of industry plus the docks, shipbuilding, road building, canal building and all the individual trades not to mention a couple of world wars used to keep thousands of young men gamely employed and provided some form of comradeship, community and equality amongst their fellow employees. Everything now is either mechanised or computerised requiring just one operator (of either sex) rather than 500 men with spanner like hands or alternatively the work is carried out by the equivalent cheaper labour forces overseas. Consequently large sections of our society are now completely disenfranchised and surplus to requirement whilst having to live in an expensive, throwaway, material orientated society. Unfortunately, it would seem that gangs now fill these voids.
I don’t forgive them though.