The bad stuff

[biffvernon]

people you excuse...

I don't think anyone here is excusing the people involved in criminal behaviour, but some of us are trying to understand and explain the behaviour, the better to prevent it in the future.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Such an interesting thread. There are too many people in this society with not much to do. And there are no laws in place to make them contribute usefully, and no religion, or morals, to make them nice - the opposite is true in fact - everything conspires to ruin their character. I am pessimistic beyond words about our future - unless there is a rather useful war, plague or famine on the horizon, which would simply eradicate the problem.

 

[skier-hughes]

maybe global warming Joce?

 

[Flyfisher]

I blame the parents.
http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

 

[robgil]

I think , Merlin , we are failing on all three of those points.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

One of the flaws of the Left and sociology in general is to assume that all behaviour can be understood, explained, controlled and resolved. If only we could understand why the young/poor/ethnic/religious/social minority group is disaffected and angry, we could solve the causes and everyone will lead fulflled, contented lives of equality and equity, that maximise their human potential. Or so their theory goes.

The lesson of civilised history seems to me to be that whatever you do for, to and with people, there is always a group, (thankfully small), who will employ short-term, non-cooperative strategies to maximise theirindividual gain. Relatively simple gaming theory, I think.

The looting and violence at the moment is not a disaffected underclass desperate to survive and provide for their families, or a political class engaged in a struggle for rights and equality.

It is a small and powerful group seizing an opportunity to take what they can, because they can. In the very immediate term, it is a rational and successful strategy for them. That's probably why the profile of those being convicted is quite broad and by no means exclusively the "underclass".

The answer to this is not to try and understand why a few people behave like this - human populations are broad spectrum from the very altruistic to the violent bully and always will be. The answer is to ensure that the bully understands that the risks of detetction, capture, punishment and deterrence far outweigh the short-term gains.

 

[Keithj]

I was amazed to see that there is a website for the thugs looting and vandalising, telling them how to behave now to avoid being caught. It seems the "trouble" was orchestrated and coordinated via the Internet.

WHY they wanted to do that is beyond my understanding.

What makes me hopeful is that the number of people involved is actually very small. The vast majority of young folks are not out there smashing shop windows and looting.
One of my pals is a "Town Pastor" in Ipswich, which involves being out on the streets between 10pm and 4am. He meets a lot of people who are the worse for wear, and provides water, chocolate, a friendly face, and often a safe passage home. He's never met a thug.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Keith - it's very sad that most young people are being tarred by the brush of the very few.

In Liverpool the community clean-up (https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=158783327533310) was initiated and organised online by some 18/20 year olds, concerned about the damage being done to their community. Why is this so much less newsworthy than the mindless few smashing the windows and nicking trainers?

 

[biffvernon]

The answer is to ensure that the bully understands that the risks of detetction, capture, punishment and deterrence far outweigh the short-term gains.

That might seem obvious as it may be part of what motivates you and me to behave ourselves. In my long experience of working with inner city youths I found there were a significant number for whom the link between behaviour and the risks of detetction, capture, punishment and deterrence were hard to find. At the moment of action, they just didn't care about the future. At the other end of the spectrum, it is well established that the death penalty makes little impact on the murder rate.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

there were a significant number for whom the link between behaviour and the risks of detetction, capture, punishment and deterrence were hard to find. At the moment of action, they just didn't care about the future.

Is that because the link is too hard to see? Criminal justice is seen by thee yobs to be soft, distant, and subserviant to the human "rights" of offenders? I'm amazed by the number of hooligans on the telly justifying their disorderly and criminal behaviour as "because we can". I'm also struck by how many aren't inner city youths - but employed eaching assistants for example.

Make the link between action and consequence much more explicit and severe, and more of them will start to think twice. It strikes me the post-war welfare-based consensus hasn't resolved the issues. Maybe it's time to stop trying to understand them, and esnure that human rights are much more balanced with obligations to society.

 

[Lime]

The fact that some of those arrested are in low pay but respectable jobs says a lot about how society has decayed.
Jobs with low pay often short-term contract do not give self-esteem, security, a place in society nor hope for the future.
Meanwhile they see others, earning differential x248, taking bonuses on top of their earnings of sizes that they would not earn in 10 lifetimes.
Are those earning 248 times as much more deserving?
I think not.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Children and young adults, even from prosperous backgrounds, often crave a bit of excitement and danger, and like to rebel. The reason why more of them don't run amuck is because their behaviour is moderated through the influence of their parents, teachers and other figures whom they can respect.

Alison Pearson, not my favorite journalist by any means, has written a surprisingly good article in today's telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8693536/Raised-to-rampage.html

This is an extract:

In the final chapter of Lord of the Flies, after the boys stranded on the island have formed rival gangs and committed arson, theft and murder, the author William Golding pulls off one of the great shifts in perspective in literature. From the young savage lying on the beach, we look up and see a crisp, white uniform. Civilisation and authority have arrived in the shape of a naval officer. Suddenly we see the main character not as an all-powerful savage, but as a dirty little boy who needs a good talking to. Given limitless freedom, and without adults to show them better, children will run riot. That is the lesson of the past few days.

This is as true for the rioters of Tottenham as for the high jinx of the Bullingdon Club.

and her solution?:

What our young people need is adults to stop abdicating authority. They need police to police, teachers to teach, parents to parent, politicians and clergy to give moral leadership, and, above all, they need more people like Pauline Pearce, the jazz-singing Jamaican grandmother who fearlessly took on rioters and saved a white man from the mob. Pauline shouted at the looters everything the rest of the country wanted to say to them. Pauline didn’t walk by on the other side. She could see that they were little blighters – but she knew that they were our little blighters and the adult’s job was what it always has been: to give them what for. And, just for a moment, they weren’t monsters, feral rats or thieving scum. They were stupid kids out too late, who needed a mum like Pauline to bring them to book and a father to take them home.

I completely agree.

 

[skier-hughes]

The fact that some of those arrested are in low pay but respectable jobs says a lot about how society has decayed.
Jobs with low pay often short-term contract do not give self-esteem, security, a place in society nor hope for the future.
Meanwhile they see others, earning differential x248, taking bonuses on top of their earnings of sizes that they would not earn in 10 lifetimes.
Are those earning 248 times as much more deserving?
I think not.

So young peole aren't expected to start at the bottom of the ladder and work their way up anymore? I know they expect to earn millions and be powerful right at the start, but that has never been the way and never will.

I listened to a great interview a couple of days ago about a chimney sweep from Leicester. He could trace his family business back to the early 1800's where a child of the family, was sold as a sweeps mate, they believe, as the father had lost his job and couldn't afford to eat. He worked his way up the ladder and became a master sweep, started his own business and that has been going since 1850.

Jobs with low pay should be used to get a foothold in the employment ladder to greater things, prove you will work, prove your ability, ethics, morals. I'm dealing with young people like this every day.
Why don't you take this job? Doesn't pay enough, it's minimum wage.
They moan that immigrants have then taken all the jobs, but they are only taking the jobs they are turning down as not paying enough. A lot of these young people are leaving school hardly able to read or write, yet they expect to be earning £25/30k a year.

I went to uni, hated it, decided it wasn't what I wanted to do in life, gave up, took a low paid job working in a shop. Learnt the retail trade, ran 24 shops, bought and built up my own small chain.

My younger brother earns far less than me, my elder brother earns far more than me.
My elder brother was always a fantastic athlete and would have gone to the Olympics if it wasn't for an injury.
My yonger brother is far more intelligent than me.
Inequality, it is the way of the world.

 

[Pford75]

Hear, hear.

The reality is that we can only offer equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. My parents were not rich or university educated, but they believed in the importance of me gaining an education. I attended a regular state school. My parents ensured that I paid attention, behaved myself and completed my homework (both of them were working full time jobs and didn't have the time or knowledge to coach me at home). Meanwhile, some of my peers decided to sneer at the education system, to abuse the teachers and spend their school days doing as they wanted. All were provided with the same opportunities....it's just that some chose not to make the most of them. I would guess that many of those riotous thugs with poor job prospects also chose not to engage with the education system and had no parental influence to guide them.

Society should ensure that wherever possible, people have the same opportunities....what they choose to take from those opportunities is a personal choice.

 

[michael]

I realise that the disaffected youth is not the sole problem here but it is a potent problem that has to be addressed.
Remember Germany after the 1st World War. Thousands of defeated but able disenfranchised young men returning from the front to no prospects or future, feeling let down by their leaders, hanging around on street corners only to be whipped up by gang like political organisations.
And we all know what the outcome was there.

 

[biffvernon]

Make the link between action and consequence much more explicit and severe, and more of them will start to think twice.

Just focussing on this aspect, I do think that, however counter-intuitive to most of us, this action/consequence link just does not work for some people. There have been a zillion times when, as a school teacher, I've explained to a school pupil that if they do such and such again they will get a detention or some other consequence that I know they will really resent. Sure, that works for most, but there are a significant number for whom it has absolutely zero effect. The gratification of the moment obliterates thought of consequences in the future. Smarter strategies have to be employed.

I don't feel like that myself. Apart from, obviously, being an upright and moral pillar of society, I would never commit a crime because the consequences of getting caught would make it not worth while. But not everybody thinks like that. That's partly why ex-offenders after leaving jail, re-offend and go back to jail. No amount of more jail has any effect.

 

[skier-hughes]

but by ensuring that is in place Biff we can at least divert those who may fall into the wrong category by not being steered. I agree, some young people infuriate me, as I try and try to help them.

 

[biffvernon]

A little exchange:

Exchange between a Londoner and reporter who asked if rioting was the best way to express discontent: "Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"
The reporter from ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

 

[JoceAndChris]

The fact that some of those arrested are in low pay but respectable jobs says a lot about how society has decayed.
Jobs with low pay often short-term contract do not give self-esteem, security, a place in society nor hope for the future.
Meanwhile they see others, earning differential x248, taking bonuses on top of their earnings of sizes that they would not earn in 10 lifetimes.
Are those earning 248 times as much more deserving?
I think not.

I think they're much more deserving. Take Betty Liu, bankers' darling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Liu#Career She is run off her little Jimmy Choo'd feet more than anyone, and has worked, firecely and intelligently and without stopping, to get where she is today. But I wouldn't swap places with her, have her 6 figure salary in exchange for my peaceful life here. I'd sooner put on old jeans from Asda and have time with my birds. Reap what you sow - if you want a high salary you need not only formidable brains but to take the stress and the journeys and the hours and the limelight and the pressure - no thanks. The problem with these kids is they don't know any of that, yet, but they'll find out, and I hope that most of them come to realise that only simple pleasures that hurt no-one that bring happiness.

 

[middi]

when aspiration in life is non existent and combined with lack of oppotunities, mainly there because there was little calculated aspiration to create one in the first place, an opportunity for gain is created and interpreted as deprivation and/or survival instinct. One can only loose what they have gained without fear of loosing that non existent life aspiration to do it again. Especially so if the gain is taken away from them.
This has nothing to do with colour, gender, rich, poor . ( albeit the less educated will have greater difficulty in making " calculated aspirations" )

My definition of a " YOB" or a " CRIMINAL".

Middi