Which shellac sealant?

[Tom]

I like slippy floors, I like dancing on them! If I'm not in a dancing mood I wear those socks with knobbles on the soles.

Ah yes, a good solution, Joce!! So maybe I can afford a little slippiness

 

[Ushy M]

Sorry chaps, going back a few posts, is there any clarity about why we shouldn't use boiled linseed oil followed by wax? I was thinking about going down this route, but don't want to do the wrong thing.

 

[JoceAndChris]

No clarity I'm afraid. Lots like this method (and I've done it on the beams in the kitchen and think it looks great) but Toby says:

"Now you mentioned oiling the floor then waxing, that isn't necessary or advisable, I mean you can 'denib' by running some fine wire wool coated with a little wax and buff up any finish but if you have oiled something it shouldn't need more than that."

His concern is that you end up with a sticky mess if you linseed oil then wax, and especially if you don't leave a good long drying out period between the processes.

 

[JoceAndChris]

"4. Oil and wax do not mix! Unless you wait several days/weeks before you apply a small amount of wax. Problem is oil finishes take months to fully dry and harden (like varnish...) are dissolved by terpentine/naptha/parafin/white spirit (like guess what...) and guess what? if you put a load of wax over freshly applied oil yep that's right, the solvent in the wax will soften the oil finish top layer and stop it from drying and could turn it into a horrible sticky mess, I have seen this before!"

was what he said earlier in this thread. It didn't happen to my beams, but maybe because the wood was so incredibly dry and untreated. He's the expert on this, not me!

 

[Ushy M]

Aah - that makes sense. I wondered if there was some obscure chemical reaction involving bangs and smells (what I know about chemistry could be written on a gnat's t@dger and still leave enough room for the New Testament).

 

[Toby Newell]

I am obviously not the only one who doesn't read all the posts carefully, so to summarise (again!)

1. Boiled linseed oil dries quicker than linseed oil. this doesn't give such a consistant or durable shine as modern oil finish equivalents, but it is traditional.
2. The Liberon floor sealer I would imagine is a shellac based product, if you smell it Joce and it the fumes smell like alcohol then it is shellac. If the fumes smell like varnish/paint/white spirits/terpentine then the sealer is probably oil based. 90% of sealers are shellac based for floors as shellac is very unreactive, brings out the grain of the wood and forms a barrier seal to seal in any contaminants that may reduce adhesion of any top coats, the only finish you cannot use a shellac floor sealer under is an oil finish as the oil has to penetrate deep into the wood and the shellac will stop this. Shellac floor seal are just a highly dewaxed special pale transparent shellac which has been slightly thinned out. The best brush to apply the shellac with is a number 16 Zorino (mixed hair) mop. These are hand made in England and cost around £40 to £50 but will last a lifetime. I have had my current number 16 for four or five years and use it nearly every day and it's still wonderful to use (softer and much better than new) The ease and enjoyment of application is EXACTLY the same as moving from doing a watercolour wash with a two inch black hair paint brush and a soft water colour brush. The Zorino mops, when worn in, are as soft as water colour brushes. Mylands, Jenkins, Morrells do them.
3. Yeah. If you oil something then you don't need to wax over the top unless you are running abit of 'waxy paper' over the top or fine wire wool to 'denib' (remove any pimples) any more than that then the solvent in the wax can soften the oil finish and stop it from drying out/reaching maximum hardness.
4. Joces's floor lokks lovely and she says it istn't sticky so what she's done must be okay.
5. Shellac is made from the exudate of a beetle and dissolved in wood alcohol, you cannot get any more green, traditional, beautiful and functional finish than shellac, especially as a barrier seal, I use it on 99% of my floors from 550 year old pit sawn elm and oak to 300 year old pine and pitch pine through to Georgian, Victorian and modern engineered floors. Two coats of shellac will save you three or four coats of wax and if you have ever waxed a floor you will know what a GOOOOD thing that is! I have more info in my peices and on my website, there really should be no confusion. Ask someone who knows! I don't know how many period floors I have restored, definately the high hundreds, possibly over a thousand.

And finally.

People, Joce icluded, shouldn't get too het up on their floors. If it works for you and you haven't sanded the hell out of the floor with a walk around sander or sandblasted anything and you like the result then you should be happy. Joce's floor looks lovey and if I walked into the property my first reaction wouldn't be 'oh, that wasn't done properley' it would be 'wow, that looks amazing'. Remember there are very, very few tradesmen like me left, I have never ever met another polisher who specialises in period floors like I do the probability of getting a professional in and doing a more sympathetic and nicer job than any of you can do is very slim, primarily becuase you care and many tradesmen do not. My floors may look different but they aren't any better, only different. I do happen to know quite a lot about the mechanical properties of various finishes, their application etc and about the history of wood finishing but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I therefore cannot honestly say my floors look better than any others. Floors and (interior) wood in general doesn't need any feeding, a stable low humidity even temperature climate is more important. Anything you put on top of them as long as it isn't caustic will have a protective effect by reducing the wear to the surface and keeping it clean. Obviously a 'reversible' finish ie one that can be easily removed is preferable when restroring older floors and timber as future generations can remove these finishes by hand with much less damage to the surface patination, but after that, anything goes. Modern synthetic polishes like traffic wax aren't ideal as although they provide a protective film they stick so aggressively they are very hard to remove adequately enough to get a different fresh finish to adhere in the future. Ideally I am sure you would all want future generations to be able to restore and upkeep your property in an easy and straightforward way as possible, after all that is what owning a period property is all about.

Toby

 

[Tom]

Obviously a 'reversible' finish ie one that can be easily removed is preferable when restroring older floors and timber as future generations can remove these finishes by hand with much less damage to the surface patination

Toby, this has been the most important factor for me and I'm hugely grateful for you clarifying everything above. I've been so scared of applying anything that's 'forever' and, having spent so much on this new floor, the last thing I want to do is damage it. Thank God we have people like you on this forum! Many, many, many thanks

Jaqy

 

[Nigel Watts]

Of all the craftsmen I have employed the best have been those with a real passion for what they do and are prepared to share their kowledge with others. Toby heads the list in joint first place with Tony Smith my railings man, who managed to find a remnant of our street's original railings while rumaging uninvited through Boris Johnson's front garden late one evening and then getting his permission to take it away for copying.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Nigel, have you got a link for your railings man?

Carole

 

[Tom]

Wow, Nigel, that's some initiative!! Well done Tony Smith

 

[Toby Newell]

Well that's not only being sympathetic it's just plain logical. Either apply a reversible finish that can be stripped and refinished with minimal damage more regularly OR apply the most durable top quality finish you can buy that will not require refinishing for many years and hence minimise damage. That's the beauty of period homes, they make you think about the future and others, not just what may be the cheapest/most convenient for you at present. Which is why over 99% of my floors are either finished in shellac and traditional hand applied beeswax or top quality commercial water based floor lacquers. I apply modern lacquers to old floors sometimes but I always offer my opinion to the customer which is that older floors just look better with older finishes applied to them, they just do.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Tony is a rather elusive chap, but I bumped into him only a couple of months ago when he asked if he could have a leftover piece from the last job he did for me to copy for another client. He has an encycolpaedic knowledge of London railing styles, works very strange hours (it was after 10 p.m. that he was digging about in Boris's garden) and is not on the web as far as I know, but I found this on Yell, which I am sure must be him:


A Thomson-Smith Architectural Metal Workers

Tel: 07956 261669| Unit 17, Westgate Centre, Bocking St, London, E8 3RU

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you so much Toby for rejoining this thread and saying it all again; it reminds me of when I was teaching and I'd have to say everything 50 billion times over! After all you've said the art of floor finishing is clear to me in three simple steps 1) Prepare the floor with a light hand sand 2) Shellac the floor by hand 3) Wax the floor by hand

Thanks also for kindly comments about the floor. My first floor here was unsatisfactory (giant electric floor sander, water stain, no sealer, custard type wax over applied and left overnight - basically, all wrong), this one's much better- I think I'll leave the drawing room to be sixth and last!

Just phoned Liberon and their Floor sealer is an oil based sealer unfortunately, carried in white spririt. Here's the product description if anyone's interested:

"Purpose
Liberon Floor Sealer is a natural, oil based finish for wood and parquet floors. It enhances the natural colour of new and old wood and is water, heat and alcohol resistant. Floor Sealer can be used alone to achieve a final satin to gloss finish, or as a sealer prior to waxing or varnishing with Liberon’s range of floor finishing products. It is also suitable for sealing unvarnished cork surfaces.
Performance
- Oil based sealer for wood and parquet flooring
- Enhances the natural colour of new and old wood
- Seals floors prior to waxing and varnishing
- Helps protect against stains and scratching
- EN71 Part 3 Approved – Safe for toys
- Endorsed by the Guild of Master Craftsmen
- Usage : Interior"

 

[JoceAndChris]

Ideally I am sure you would all want future generations to be able to restore and upkeep your property in an easy and straightforward way as possible, after all that is what owning a period property is all about.

Toby

Indeed so. And when something is clean, shiny, and lovingly presented, people are more inclined to like it, and consequently look after it. When my floor looked as it did in picture 1, pretty much everyone who came here just couldn't understand why I would have pulled the carpets off to reveal such a shabby, damaged old thing, and when was I getting new floors laid? :evil: Now they can't understand why it was carpeted over!

 

[Toby Newell]

Well your floors were probably so 'dry' they sucked up most of the oil finish and dissipated the solvent so you should be okay with the wax, remember apply wax sparingly after the initial waxes, it builds up and then needs to be stripped off either with white spirits (horrible) or with hot soda and wire wool periodically when it attracts too much dirt. Next time though a simple dewaxed shellac would be easier to apply, cheaper, would dry quicker and give a better result. Oh and Liberon, expensive as they are do do some nice stuff but 'Endorsed by the Guild of Master Craftsmen' is a bit silly. It simply means 'we paid the Guild of Master Craftsmen' some money. If you see anyone with the guild crest you will know one thing... they are amateurs/have just started in business/are into their marketing and not as honest as they could be. It is a money making organisation, the patron was er... a certain Margaret Thatcher!!! Long as you give them a few hundred pounds (and the contact details of three of your mates) hey presto, You are now a master craftsman! Complete marketinhg tosh! I joined when I was 20 as I thought the logo looked good on my business cards! When I found out they were just a money making marketing gimmick headed by Mrs T! well, I stopped paying.

Hmmm? Now I don't pay them £200 a year anymore but I was accepted originally, so does that mean I am still a master craftsman??? You will know a master craftsman when you see one, or rather when you see his/her work oh and by the fact that they almost certainly won't be a member of the guild of master craftsmen...

I am quite sure that I am not one, my Grandfather maybe, but then he did start work at age 11 and did a 7 year apprenticeship. Perhaps I will become one in another 20 years or so? Apparently I was one when I was 20, now I'm happy just to be a craftsman.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Well your floors were probably so 'dry' they sucked up most of the oil finish and dissipated the solvent so you should be okay with the wax, remember apply wax sparingly after the initial waxes, it builds up and then needs to be stripped off either with white spirits (horrible) or with hot soda and wire wool periodically when it attracts too much dirt. Next time though a simple dewaxed shellac would be easier to apply, cheaper, would dry quicker and give a better result.

Thanks very much for the advice Toby and I certainly will use shellac on the other floors.

As for the whole business of wax clogging with dirt and needing to be stripped back, I wonder if that will happen here. I'm an obsessive vaccuumer and found that yesterday my beloved Miele vaccuum, with the little brush attachment on, brought the floor up to a good shine again. It was a hands and knees job but it's such a small area outside of the rugs I really didn't mind. Seeing as that will be done at least once a week I wonder how often I'll need to reapply wax.

 

[Moo]

I'm an obsessive vaccuumer

So, if you were to come to my house and find the odd vacuum cleaner lying about.........?

 

[Schoolmarm]

Tony is a rather elusive chap, but I bumped into him only a couple of months ago when he asked if he could have a leftover piece from the last job he did for me to copy for another client. He has an encycolpaedic knowledge of London railing styles, works very strange hours (it was after 10 p.m. that he was digging about in Boris's garden) and is not on the web as far as I know, but I found this on Yell, which I am sure must be him:
A Thomson-Smith Architectural Metal Workers

Tel: 07956 261669| Unit 17, Westgate Centre, Bocking St, London, E8 3RU

Thankyou x

 

[lou]

I love the look of Joce's boards but would this be suitable in a kitchen area do you think? If not, does anyone know what would be? Something that would darken the boards and give them a bit of a polished look without any kind of varnish?

 

[JoceAndChris]

I love the look of Joce's boards but would this be suitable in a kitchen area do you think? If not, does anyone know what would be? Something that would darken the boards and give them a bit of a polished look without any kind of varnish?

No, what I've used would definitely NOT be suitable in a kitchen. I knocked over a glass of water the other night, despite being straight out of bed and mopping it all up it's marked the floor and will have to be wire-woolled, re-waxed and polished out. Imagine doing that in a kitchen every time something was spilt!

I don't know what will darken the boards in the way that oil does - if I were you I'd ring Womersley's - 01924 400651. I have no personal connection with the company but they stock a lot of products that are often recommended here and they're helpful and knowledgeable to deal with. I see in their new catalogue, which is highly exciting by the way, there is a product called Aglaia Hard Plant Resin Oil, a "hard-wearing dirt repellent finish for floors, in clear satin matt finish"

I think it's bound to look more "varnishy" than a real wax finish, but would be so much more forgiving. I'm quite sure that no kitchen ever had a highly polished wax floor - all work surfaces and floors would have been scrubbable. Tiles or stone would be a more sensible choice in my opinion - but if you have historic boards, I can understand you'd like to show them off.