Rewiring Costs

[Flyfisher]

I think the X-10 concept was quite good, but your comments about the cost and ugliness are spot-on, which is why I didn't use it. I have a couple of IP-controlled "iBoot" mains switches, which are really designed for the remote powering on/off of PCs in large machine rooms but can be used to control any appliance via a simple webpage, so I think the concept is sound enough, but the uptake will be down to pricing I'm sure.

I agree with you that the incremental manufacturing costs are likely to be pennies, but unfortunately it all depends on the 'market pricing' that is applied. Hopefully we'll soon find out.

I've also heard that X-10 is prone to interference and spurious triggering - have you encountered this? I have a couple of Netgear powerline units that I use to stream video to my TV in a location that I don't have any cat5 and it works very well indeed, with no noticeable interference issues. Of course, continuous streaming of data might be expected to be more tolerant of 'glitches' than, say, a light switch. Still, interesting times ahead.

 

[sidd]

X10. Yes. All the downstairs lights were controlled by X10 Din rail dimmers. The benefits were that they were very controllable, by timer, remote control, glueable light switches, and that there was no audible humm from the lights, as the dimming circuit gave a nice clean waveform.

But they did indeed occasionally all go on to maximum or all turn off suddenly (just like the averag old house that needs rewiring). I bought a filter to stop that behaviour, but never got round to fitting it, as the problem did not occur in the last 18m before we sold the house. I also have an issue with dimmers. I don't like the ones that always start at maximum, because that is bad for bulbs and a bit abrupt if that is not what you want. Neither do I like dimmers (like these) which always start at the level you turned them off. And the ones that always start dim and you have to wait to get them bright are a pain too. No. What I would ideally like is a dimmer that can be operated without instructions by a guest and starts at the level you want. Also, the wiring for them works in a star arrangement, which makes it hard to replace them with another technology.

This is all getting rather academic because there was an EU decision last week aiming to outlaw incandescent light bulbs within 2 years, which means dimming, halogen downlights and bare bulb sconces may need to be rethought. As I think new technologies will be better at overlaying on existing wiring, I'm aiming to keep it simple, not assume too much, and expect to buy some cool control units in a couple of years.

This Homeplug command and control gives me the same sensation I had about the internet in the early nineties, when I was on a command line interface... cool but only geeks understand how cool it is. Once it is sold correctly with definable Benefits rather than Features which no one can relate to, and mass take-up happens, the thing is unstoppable. The same with GSM texting at the same time... no one got it. There was no one apart from a group of my friends to txt with. And then it took off. I think future homes will be wired with more 13A rings and no switches. If people want their wireless switch to look like an old fashioned one, they can do it, and stick one to the wall wherever they want. I have been experimenting with Wise controls, as our kitchen lighting was terrible, and I needed a better solution faster than I could redesign the whole house. The concept is spot on. Add IP control, and allow it over powerlines, and that is an entirely new way of thinking about wiring.

iBoot sounds very good, but it is quite expensive. I like the auto ping idea, as my wife gets awfully confused after extended power cuts if the server has been shut off by the UPS.

Actually, light control over IP should be pretty reliable. Packet based comms with verification checksums and automatic error correction are miles more reliable than X10, which just sends a signal but doesn't check that it was received.

 

[Flyfisher]

Interesting stuff.
You're right that the iBoot is expensive, probably a consequence of it's intended market. But it proves the concept is sound.

Your X-10 experience echos what other people have told me. I've since been waiting for something better - maybe this new homeplug initative will be the answer.

I went to a housebuilding show a couple of years ago and talked to a company that were using a sort of hybrid IP/X-10 system. The main control units were IP-controlled over a standard ethernet LAN but they used X-10-like signalling over the short lengths of mains wiring to the existing fittings - the idea being that installation didn't need any disruption to the walls, which seemed like a good idea. Anyway, they claimed to have solved the X-10 unreliability by continually sending control commands. So, switching a light 'on', for example, would result in a constant stream of 'on' commands every few seconds, the idea being that if some transient interference cause the lights to go off then the next 'on' command would reset things automatically.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the company or their system. The problem is that all sorts of clever things can be designed but until there is a true standard to support it, such a system remains bespoke and therefore probably low volume and therefore probably high-cost. I hope Homeplug can change this, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Penners]

I used to be quite interested in this topic, back when I thought I understood it!

Now my head hurts.

However, it never does any harm to be reminded of just how much one doesn't know.

 

[sidd]

Penners, I do understand. Aconyms can be really annoyng. And as at some point I may have to ask some really dumb questions about ancient building techniques, here's my attempt at clarifying some of the above...

X10
If you are the sort of person who likes to set timeswitches to make it look like you are at home even though you are out cavorting somewhere else, then X10 products can be really good for switching lights on and off, and even closing curtains. A switch sends a message over any house's mains circuit to the light or curtain motor and tells it to do something. X10 has radio and infra-red add-ons, so you can even turn things on and off by remote control. It is a very old technology, and has a few drawbacks. But one reason it is popular is that it can plug and play on your existing wiring.

Homeplug
This is a way of connecting computers anywhere in the house to the internet connection by using adapters that just plug into the 13 amp circuit. It's fast and reliable, and it needs no modification to your existing wiring. IMHO this is going to be the big new thing for home wiring. Imagine if you bought a TV that didn't need an arial. All it needs is a power plug, and Sky or whoever send the programmes down your powerlines. I also found out recently that they were going to do do stuff like X10 in a more modern and reliable way.

Wise controls
It's a it like X10, but all wireless. You can stick a light switch on the wall with no wiring, and the receiver just turns lights on and off.

Real wiring
Stuff like Cat5e/6 is still useful, but there are now more options, so it is not the only way, although still the fastest and most reliable.

Dimming
My personal bugbear about dimmers is that they humm. My wife can't hear it, but it is a provable phenomenon. Basically the cheaper the dimmer the more shortcuts they take, and the noisier it is.

Energy saving light bulbs
One way or another, expect old fashioned and halogen light bulbs to become more expensive, and the newer energy efficient bulbs will get better and become the only option. But lighting schemes will need to change, because they are not as pretty, and they are harder to dim, amongst other drawbacks.

If your head hurts that is good. It's like when you take a lot of exercise, you get stiff, but then you are fitter! My physiotherapist "discharged" me today after I over-did it climbing up the Paps of Jura in August last year, so don't take me literally!

 

[Flyfisher]

Presumably, the recent EU announcement of their intention ban filament light bulbs within 3 years (I think it was) wonhe 't be too popular with anyone who has spent thousands on a computer controlled 'mood lighting' system. Perhaps they'll just stockpile filament bulbs?

Low energy lights are OK but (to my knowledge) cannot be dimmed, so maybe this EU directive will result in millions of light dimmers becoming landfill as people replace them with standard on/off switches.

Actually, I believe low-energy lamps will work with dimmers as long as the dimmer is set to max brightness, i.e. not clipping the ac waveform at all. But what happens if the dimmer is running at less than full-on - which some inevitably will. Will the lamp just not work or could it cause a fault condition?

 

[sidd]

Realistically, I think the announcements were just headline grabbing initiatives by politicians who don't have the first clue how this all works, let alone the price of 1L of milk.

It is simply not practical to outlaw filament bulbs entirely, because there are lots of genuine applications where there is no alternative, and the cost to the globe of replacing all that switchgear outside of the normal life-cycle is huge.

Try Googling "dimmable T5". "dimming T5", "Westinghouse CFL dimmable".

It's not impossible to dim low energy bulbs, but we need quite a lot of development to get it mainstream.

I think they will tax incandesents instead. I'm a great fan of T5 units, as they start immediately, can have good colour and are the most efficient bulbs you can get. The trick is to create a lighting design that uses them in an indirect way. That's something that is holding me up. I'm not making them dimmable, as that is too expensive at the moment.

 

[pieman]

I had a quote for a 1914's 3 bed detached house of £2500-3000. (Lincs)

It could well be dependant on where inthe country you are too.

 

[Moo]

That's probably what the whole house would have cost to buy new.

 

[pieman]

True, maybe less.

Our current house a victorian 1877 3 bed detached, sold in 1972 for £8000!

God knows what it will all cost in another 30 odd years time.

 

[Moo]

Our first mortgage, for a tall narrow bog-standard 1906 semi, was £12,000 (£10,000 + £2,000 for refurbishment).
Last year, post-M25, a similar house in the same street was on the market for £750,000.

If only we'd rented it out instead of sellingl it when we moved to Norfolk!

 

[Penners]

But then if you had that kind precognition, you'd have been able to make a fortune a thousand different ways.

Hindsight, as they say, is a wonderful gift.

 

[Penners]

the recent EU announcement of their intention ban filament light bulbs

I wonder how long it will be before the Next Big Threat to our planet is all the mercury vapour being released from dead-and-discarded low energy lamps.

 

[pieman]

Next I will have to fit catalytic converters to the back sides of my animals.

 

[NT]

I had a quote for a 1914's 3 bed detached house of £2500-3000. (Lincs)

That's probably what the whole house would have cost to buy new.

£300 would be about right.


NT

 

[Flyfisher]

the recent EU announcement of their intention ban filament light bulbs

I wonder how long it will be before the Next Big Threat to our planet is all the mercury vapour being released from dead-and-discarded low energy lamps.

Indeed. There are other question marks with low-energy lamps as well.
This article is quite illuminating ( :roll: sorry, couldn't resist :roll: )

 

[Penners]

His point about incandescent lamps in thermostatically-controlled heated houses is an interesting one.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, it just goes to reinforce my long-held view that things might seem simple but rarely are when looked at in detail.

It reminds me of one of my favourite quotations; 'If you think you have a solution for the Middle East, then you don't understand the problem' (can't remember who said it, unfortunately).

Global warming increasingly seems to me to be in the same category of almost impossible complexity. And we all know that politicians don't usually 'do' complexity.

 

[NT]

> This article is quite illuminating

Unfortunately it is too riddled with errors to be of much value.


NT

 

[AMc]

Heating spaces and lighting spaces use different techniques which are not directly comparible.

Next time I'm cold I won't be turning on my bedside lamp - it's not sensible - a 100W bulb generates less than 1/10th of a bar of an electric fire so it's contribution to your space heating is almost nonexistant.

While you can argue that the energy expended by the incandesant bulb is 'only' more heat you only need to know a little about energy production to know that a modern condensing gas boiler is supposed to be 90% efficient. The estimates I've read suggest electricity production from coal is around 30% efficient by the time it gets to the switch (60% lost in the cooling towers at source!). So the excess heat generated by an incandesant creates many times more CO2 than the equivalent space heating would.
You don't have your heating on all year so a lot of the time the wasted heat is just that.

Mercury is a poisonous toxin, so it should be recycled. IKEA accept their bulbs (and batteries) back for recycling (or they used to) other retailers will have to follow suit. You shouldn't put CFLs in landfill so that argument is a bit redundant. I haven't researched the envirnomental polution in a tungsten filament bulb but I doubt you can put them on the compost heap

It's a pity so much time and energy (pun intended) is spent shooting down strategies to slow down global warming and so little is expending on working on better solutions to the problem.

Right - back to reading "The Green Building Bible"...