Zebra
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In terms of how many people can lift what load..... where there's a will there's a way, and if something can be dragged/bumped/walked, then if it has to get up the stairs, it will.
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stuart45
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6x6 oak 6ft long should be around 30kg.
malcolm
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Oak is about 800kg per cubic metre. So a 2m length of 5 x 6 inches should be 30kg.
Cubist
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Oops, my bad. Should have used pencil and paper rather than trusting google, or my fingers on a keyboard. In my own defence though the feasibility concern, besides the weight, was whether the beam could be physically maneuvered into place via the stairs, landing, and doorways. Ho hum.
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Sorry for the red herring but at least theres another piece of valuable advice - trust no-one else's judgment - particularly mine! Glad to see so many other members jumping in to correct me, hopefully they'll catch other gaffes as they surface.
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I was chatting earlier with an acquainance of mine, a retired thatcher, about your project. As I expected there was a little 'sucking of teeth' - its in the nature of the beast - before he offered some thoughts/concerns. He pointed out that the underside of the thatch may be very old and could date back to the original build of the house. As such, care needs to be taken not to disturb the fastenings used to tie the thatch to the battens/rods or the battens/rods themselves and, of course, all significant movement of the rafters. Also, given the potential age of the underside the straw/reed(?), it may be a trifle frangible and could break up or pull from its ties if heavily manhandled. His suggestion is, if some movement is unavoidable that you thoroughly dampen the underside as this will help the straw/reed resist any damage. In his opinion it was also vital to thoroughly shield the underside using damp fabrics to defend it from stray sparks from power tools - he told me a story (probably apocryphal) about a chap finding an old nail with a circular saw and setting his roof alight.
Also, and in passing, are there any supporting posts from the ground floor under the section of beam/plate that needs to be excised?
Also, and in passing, are there any supporting posts from the ground floor under the section of beam/plate that needs to be excised?
Hey,
yes, using damp cloths a good idea and i will certainly take care on this point
RE are there posts under the section of wall plate that has decayed? In short not 100% sure yet if the current structure has posts in that position yet - but would expect there are posts raising off the mid plate above the downstairs window. However, the Engineer has recommended placing two studs that are continuous fm sole plate to wall plate as shown in the attached pic (at the moment I don’t understand how these posts will live with the mid plate). So yes we are aiming for that.
(Note that the TF1 and TF2 element in that pic are the raised arms of two steel beams it is proposed we place across the building and attach to the underside of the wall plates to hold them together and neutralise roof spread. (They are look like this from the side \______/ the arms are welded into position once the beams are fed into the floor alongside the rafters.)
yes, using damp cloths a good idea and i will certainly take care on this point
RE are there posts under the section of wall plate that has decayed? In short not 100% sure yet if the current structure has posts in that position yet - but would expect there are posts raising off the mid plate above the downstairs window. However, the Engineer has recommended placing two studs that are continuous fm sole plate to wall plate as shown in the attached pic (at the moment I don’t understand how these posts will live with the mid plate). So yes we are aiming for that.
(Note that the TF1 and TF2 element in that pic are the raised arms of two steel beams it is proposed we place across the building and attach to the underside of the wall plates to hold them together and neutralise roof spread. (They are look like this from the side \______/ the arms are welded into position once the beams are fed into the floor alongside the rafters.)
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I should also explain that as well as fitting those beams to stop rook spread, the initial reason and purpose of the work is to repair the front wall which is bowing inward at the botom of the wall, probably as the result of roof spread (pushes top out and bottom is pushed inward) but also possibly from one of the posts failing. Inside the wall there is a break in the wall where a post/brace has almost come out of position but seems to have jammed on the brick plinth. Its fragile. The photos don't show the lean in very well because its all white. But if you look at the pic showing the internal propping studs I've put up you can see the angle of the window frame which is flush with the face of the front wall is leaning at circa 11 degrees.
inside view of break in wall just on top of plinth which looks like a post/brace has failed
the angle you can see here is followed by the whole wall to close beside the front door: so between the window and the door the front wall goes inwards - the sole plate has travelled on the plinth and the material of the wall has remained itact except where you can see on the inside the cracking of the plaster as the plate pushes inwards .
inside view of break in wall just on top of plinth which looks like a post/brace has failed
the angle you can see here is followed by the whole wall to close beside the front door: so between the window and the door the front wall goes inwards - the sole plate has travelled on the plinth and the material of the wall has remained itact except where you can see on the inside the cracking of the plaster as the plate pushes inwards .
QUESTION RE Stapping and Propping. I'm going to strap and prop asap. I will need to identify the posts going into the wall plate so I don't accidentally demolish them making way for straps and needles. Especially on the front wall, kneeling effectively at the top of the wall chipping away plaster and wall infill to be able to see the studs is worrying work given how fragile it looks. I wonder if there is such a thing as a scanner which enbables you to find a timber post in a clay wall?
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The more I see of these kind of problems the more I think English Heritage, and all conservators, should plaster (forgive the pun) all discussions of render with warnings of the kind the pilots of the Titanic should have had hammered into their heads; i.e, See render think iceberg and remember you're seeing just 10% of the problems.
I won't labour the point but I'm deeply troubled by the extent and potential nature of the issues exhibited by your house. I'm also puzzled by the fact that the project you brought to the table initially concerned a partially failed wall plate when seemingly there are more significant and threatening issues - and some of these may be the true root cause of the bellying of the walls. In particular I am concerned that the sole plate has rotted out and as it has collapsed, and continues to collapse, the whole of the timber frame above is shifting under its own weight and also snow-loads. The implications of the bowing are that the mortice and tenon joints that held the sole plate to the principle posts have also failed.
With that in mind I am hugely concerned that the whole front of the house could be solely supported by and pivoting on the tenons in the beam you are proposing to cut to insert a new section of timber.
Please, before you go any further, share with us the full extent of the known issues with the house and all the advice and plans any professionals may have given to you.
I won't labour the point but I'm deeply troubled by the extent and potential nature of the issues exhibited by your house. I'm also puzzled by the fact that the project you brought to the table initially concerned a partially failed wall plate when seemingly there are more significant and threatening issues - and some of these may be the true root cause of the bellying of the walls. In particular I am concerned that the sole plate has rotted out and as it has collapsed, and continues to collapse, the whole of the timber frame above is shifting under its own weight and also snow-loads. The implications of the bowing are that the mortice and tenon joints that held the sole plate to the principle posts have also failed.
With that in mind I am hugely concerned that the whole front of the house could be solely supported by and pivoting on the tenons in the beam you are proposing to cut to insert a new section of timber.
Please, before you go any further, share with us the full extent of the known issues with the house and all the advice and plans any professionals may have given to you.
Hi, yes, thanks for asking. Hope this makes sense .
Bought house 10 years ago, surveyors said bowing wall but not moving and subsequent advise said leave it alone you will get signs if it starts to move and it might be the way it is for a few more hundred years …. … there are signs that a flitch joint has been deployed to repair part of the sole plate immediately below where the wall is bowing … rainwater tends to course down the right side of the dormer and run directly down the wall to the right of the downstairs window …. 3 engineers have looked at it the bowing wall and all said it could be one of several things have caused, could just be roof-spread, could be broken brace or post or joint, failed sole plate ... there are still no signs of movement taking place now (but some small cracking in the Tyrolean (cement!) render.
I was OK with this but always had it in mind I would get the bowing wall sorted at some point before I’m too old to think about it. The cottage is timber framed with a small brick and tin roof lean-to on the back. Its thatched (long straw) and has one dormer window at the front with Yorkshire windows (in an exposed position rather then being hidden under thatch eaves where they would do a lot better). Its Grade II listed. Some of the walls at least are wattle and daub.
So the time came last November. Then I also thought no point in taking the wall down etc etc only to be told several years later re roofspread … so invited Engineer to assess the property and recommend re roofspread. I choose someone with lots of experience with listed and framed buildings.
The Engineer confirmed there was roofspread and said better to implement something to prevent it going any further/pull it back and that this would be best done sooner rather than later.
The Engineer identified the decayed wall plate under the dormer and illustrated a solution for roof spread. This is placing two steel frames to hold the two wall plates (front and back) together. (They are look like this from the side \_____/ are slid in along the joists without the arms on and the arms are welded in situ. And its bolted to the underside of the wall plate). Another steel tie is included to do the same along the party wall. The solution includes adding two studs to be continuous fm sole to wall plate in the front wall, either side of the windows.
The part of the wall plate we can see at the moment is decayed immediately under the dormer and just a little either side of the dormer. It looks like the Yorkshire windows were poorly fitted and rain has been getting in and running off inside the window sill/wall … as well as some water going down the side of the dormer at the front - the back part well thatched and no sign of water other than on the very front sill. However the front wall is rendered with Tyrolean render AKA cement which I understand may also cause condensation against timbers ….
To an ordinary person with no timber framing knowledge, its looks at if a post to the right of both the windows has slipped over the brick plinth inwards but jammed without going totally clear of the plinth, resting on its back edge. The downstairs windows leans into the wall toward that side and the rafter that is directly above the right pos/side of the windows is also slightly moved so cross lintel of the dormer on the inside drops a little to that side too. You can see the sole plate has moved on the plinth from just below the right side of the window to close to the door so wall and plinth and no longer aligned but about 10 degrees askew.
cottage plan
proposed tie frames and flat tie. TF1 and TF2 are this shape from the side \________/
the frame arms with 'hands' that are bolted through underside of wall plate
Bought house 10 years ago, surveyors said bowing wall but not moving and subsequent advise said leave it alone you will get signs if it starts to move and it might be the way it is for a few more hundred years …. … there are signs that a flitch joint has been deployed to repair part of the sole plate immediately below where the wall is bowing … rainwater tends to course down the right side of the dormer and run directly down the wall to the right of the downstairs window …. 3 engineers have looked at it the bowing wall and all said it could be one of several things have caused, could just be roof-spread, could be broken brace or post or joint, failed sole plate ... there are still no signs of movement taking place now (but some small cracking in the Tyrolean (cement!) render.
I was OK with this but always had it in mind I would get the bowing wall sorted at some point before I’m too old to think about it. The cottage is timber framed with a small brick and tin roof lean-to on the back. Its thatched (long straw) and has one dormer window at the front with Yorkshire windows (in an exposed position rather then being hidden under thatch eaves where they would do a lot better). Its Grade II listed. Some of the walls at least are wattle and daub.
So the time came last November. Then I also thought no point in taking the wall down etc etc only to be told several years later re roofspread … so invited Engineer to assess the property and recommend re roofspread. I choose someone with lots of experience with listed and framed buildings.
The Engineer confirmed there was roofspread and said better to implement something to prevent it going any further/pull it back and that this would be best done sooner rather than later.
The Engineer identified the decayed wall plate under the dormer and illustrated a solution for roof spread. This is placing two steel frames to hold the two wall plates (front and back) together. (They are look like this from the side \_____/ are slid in along the joists without the arms on and the arms are welded in situ. And its bolted to the underside of the wall plate). Another steel tie is included to do the same along the party wall. The solution includes adding two studs to be continuous fm sole to wall plate in the front wall, either side of the windows.
The part of the wall plate we can see at the moment is decayed immediately under the dormer and just a little either side of the dormer. It looks like the Yorkshire windows were poorly fitted and rain has been getting in and running off inside the window sill/wall … as well as some water going down the side of the dormer at the front - the back part well thatched and no sign of water other than on the very front sill. However the front wall is rendered with Tyrolean render AKA cement which I understand may also cause condensation against timbers ….
To an ordinary person with no timber framing knowledge, its looks at if a post to the right of both the windows has slipped over the brick plinth inwards but jammed without going totally clear of the plinth, resting on its back edge. The downstairs windows leans into the wall toward that side and the rafter that is directly above the right pos/side of the windows is also slightly moved so cross lintel of the dormer on the inside drops a little to that side too. You can see the sole plate has moved on the plinth from just below the right side of the window to close to the door so wall and plinth and no longer aligned but about 10 degrees askew.
cottage plan
proposed tie frames and flat tie. TF1 and TF2 are this shape from the side \________/
the frame arms with 'hands' that are bolted through underside of wall plate
Cubist
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Gerry,
Thanks for the additional information and I now have a much better understanding of your SE's technical proposals. My immediate concern is that all this work must, in my opinion, be conducted in a particular sequence to ensure the structural integrity of both your, and your neighbours, properties and assure the safety of the people doing the work.
Did your SE provide any guidance concerning the sequencing of the various work elements?
Have you discussed with him/her,or any other qualified person, how the project should best be attacked?
I consider it vital that these dependencies are understood and adhered to as you move forward.
Thanks for the additional information and I now have a much better understanding of your SE's technical proposals. My immediate concern is that all this work must, in my opinion, be conducted in a particular sequence to ensure the structural integrity of both your, and your neighbours, properties and assure the safety of the people doing the work.
Did your SE provide any guidance concerning the sequencing of the various work elements?
Have you discussed with him/her,or any other qualified person, how the project should best be attacked?
I consider it vital that these dependencies are understood and adhered to as you move forward.
Thanks again. I could go to the engineer and ask for plan of work, but the current arrangement (his practise’ default) is that the Engineer will answer any / endless questions re the design as part of the payment for the work on the design. However, he will not answer questions when its about something most contractors would already know. Talking with the Engineer and my neighbour who happens to be a builder (bricks and mortar variety not timber frame) I have the following work order in mind.
1. Strapping and Propping
a) Prop up first floor – 8’’x2’’ timbers placed underneath joists (the joists are every 16’’) (ive done this already)
b) Remove plaster from wall plate along the back of the house to inspect the plate and its condition (just started this).
c) Assuming rear wall plate is OK strap to front wall plate (3 x 2 tonne straps with 5K break force) one near party wall and the other two either side of the window at a point where the front wall plate is sound (16’
d) understand what shape the frame is before putting attempting to put holes in in for needles … remove enough plaster in the inside to see the frame coming from the wall plate at holes into move plaster from wall plate along the back of the house to inspect the plate and its condition and to identify where needles can be placed
e) Create supports for the 1st floor that will hold the needles coming through under the wall plate and are immediately above the supports crated on the ground floor
f) Place acrow props on the outside front of the cottage about 12 inches from wall (to allow work on the wall) and needles that go through the wall supporting the wall plate
g) Join acrow props with brace prop
2. Support / prop Dormer ….
3. Remove Tyrolean render – expect hard work
4. Remove infills: its looks like wattle and daub so the name of the game is to keep as much as possible and use it reconstituted when rebuilding the wall (looks like I have found the supplies of hazel I’m likely to need … straw and clay also easy locally
5. Inspect the timber frame and consult re what is good and what needs replacing (aprt from the section of wall plate already advised). I'm not sure
i will be able to see the top side of the wall plates to see if they are good ... in deed some details about how to tell extent of decay on any timber when its not in-your-face obvious would be useful
6. Replace the section of wall plate already identified as decayed using appropriate timber and butt joint with remaining existing wall plate only. Secure with steel sheet front and back and extending at least 60cm each side of the new piece of wall plate: bolt through front and back. I don't know
exactly how this will be done because of the dormer .. need to understand if supporting the rafters over which the dormer is built will be enough to separate the wall plate from the same rafters in order to replace the plate ....or if there is a push in push out trick for this type of situ ...
7. Place two new studs either side of the windows that span sole to wall plate (i’m not yet sure how these live with the mid plate) and brace.
8. Place studs/plates/joints found to be under par
9. Get steel fabricator in to measure for and fit supporting frames as specified and bolt to the undersides of the wall plates
10. Supplement underspec’d first floor joists with new timber joists, bolted.
11. Engineer to inspect timber work …
12. And further remedial work carried out
13. Refill front walls with reconstituted and new wattle and daub
14. Remove props and needles
15. Finish wattle and daub
16. Plastering (hopefully we don’t have to pebble dash!)
Hope this makes sense at least as a straw horse?
1. Strapping and Propping
a) Prop up first floor – 8’’x2’’ timbers placed underneath joists (the joists are every 16’’) (ive done this already)
b) Remove plaster from wall plate along the back of the house to inspect the plate and its condition (just started this).
c) Assuming rear wall plate is OK strap to front wall plate (3 x 2 tonne straps with 5K break force) one near party wall and the other two either side of the window at a point where the front wall plate is sound (16’
d) understand what shape the frame is before putting attempting to put holes in in for needles … remove enough plaster in the inside to see the frame coming from the wall plate at holes into move plaster from wall plate along the back of the house to inspect the plate and its condition and to identify where needles can be placed
e) Create supports for the 1st floor that will hold the needles coming through under the wall plate and are immediately above the supports crated on the ground floor
f) Place acrow props on the outside front of the cottage about 12 inches from wall (to allow work on the wall) and needles that go through the wall supporting the wall plate
g) Join acrow props with brace prop
2. Support / prop Dormer ….
3. Remove Tyrolean render – expect hard work
4. Remove infills: its looks like wattle and daub so the name of the game is to keep as much as possible and use it reconstituted when rebuilding the wall (looks like I have found the supplies of hazel I’m likely to need … straw and clay also easy locally
5. Inspect the timber frame and consult re what is good and what needs replacing (aprt from the section of wall plate already advised). I'm not sure
i will be able to see the top side of the wall plates to see if they are good ... in deed some details about how to tell extent of decay on any timber when its not in-your-face obvious would be useful
6. Replace the section of wall plate already identified as decayed using appropriate timber and butt joint with remaining existing wall plate only. Secure with steel sheet front and back and extending at least 60cm each side of the new piece of wall plate: bolt through front and back. I don't know
exactly how this will be done because of the dormer .. need to understand if supporting the rafters over which the dormer is built will be enough to separate the wall plate from the same rafters in order to replace the plate ....or if there is a push in push out trick for this type of situ ...
7. Place two new studs either side of the windows that span sole to wall plate (i’m not yet sure how these live with the mid plate) and brace.
8. Place studs/plates/joints found to be under par
9. Get steel fabricator in to measure for and fit supporting frames as specified and bolt to the undersides of the wall plates
10. Supplement underspec’d first floor joists with new timber joists, bolted.
11. Engineer to inspect timber work …
12. And further remedial work carried out
13. Refill front walls with reconstituted and new wattle and daub
14. Remove props and needles
15. Finish wattle and daub
16. Plastering (hopefully we don’t have to pebble dash!)
Hope this makes sense at least as a straw horse?
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Hi Gerry,
I'm away from home at present so under time pressures. I'll get to other matters with your plan in due course but for now my principle concern is the use of straps on the frame component. Hopefully, you already know that straps should never be used on or between beams. They should only be used between opposing posts and only then as close as possible to any beams that may be installed in those posts. You cannot trust that the mortice and tenon joints between the beams and posts will not fail or has not already done so.
More later,
Cheers,
Steve
I'm away from home at present so under time pressures. I'll get to other matters with your plan in due course but for now my principle concern is the use of straps on the frame component. Hopefully, you already know that straps should never be used on or between beams. They should only be used between opposing posts and only then as close as possible to any beams that may be installed in those posts. You cannot trust that the mortice and tenon joints between the beams and posts will not fail or has not already done so.
More later,
Cheers,
Steve
I'm seriously impressed by this thread. Good luck!
In no way wanting to raise a negative input but I'm assuming the place isn't listed? Absolutely essential works but I guess a CO would want their say on methods and materials (whatever their level of experience/understanding)...
In no way wanting to raise a negative input but I'm assuming the place isn't listed? Absolutely essential works but I guess a CO would want their say on methods and materials (whatever their level of experience/understanding)...
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Hi there, yes it is listed and planning permission app almost finished. I have the right to prop it first as its causing concern (cracxks in the concreate render may ne more than superficial plus engineer says its at risk from roof spread. Only holding on to the planning app to see if I could name a contractor for the work but have not been able to do so yet ..going to put it in without it.