How do roofs work?

[vicky whitworth]

I feel so much better knowing there is someone facing the same challenge as me. Could you push it out with a cobbled together gadget if you took the soffits off? There has to be a way. Mind you if it's this hard to get out it ain't going to be any easier getting the solid board insulation back in. I have a horrid feeling about those tiles having to come off. Keep posting. The suspense is killing me.

 

[skier-hughes]

No easy way in from outside, so I've given up on that again today and doing another job, clearing out the low loft!!!!!

I'll report back on vacuum idea later on!!

 

[worms]

Well-trained ferret?

 

[vicky whitworth]

Ferret - interesting idea. Mice love insulation for their nests. Perhaps I could train a whole gang to go up there and cart it all away.

 

[MdB]

Ferret - interesting idea. Mice love insulation for their nests. Perhaps I could train a whole gang to go up there and cart it all away.

They would cart half of it away and fill the void with hazelnuts if our caravan insulation was anything to go by.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Um hazelnuts! What's their insulation properties like? Would be a lot easier to slide hazelnuts in than solid board insulation. What I need is a nut that is both insulating and ventilating. Nice caravan by the way!

 

[MdB]

The old (since demolished) caravan. The previous owns of the house lived in it for two years whilst bodging up the house.

Unfortunately, I think it had more insulation in it (+ hazelnuts) than the new one.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Remember me and my very wet loft? Well here's my latest thinking having just received a quote to take the roof off in order to get the insulation out between the skeilings and the tiles. I can't afford that b****y much. Now I didn't want the mess of taking down the skeilings from the inside - there's no historic material unless you count 1980s plastering!!! - but on careful reflection this must be the cheaper option. We would have to take out the skeilings in three rooms - both sides of the rooms so six skeilings in all and all have dormers in them. The mess would be horrendous but it couldn't be that expensive , could it? We would have to then have new skeilings, re-plastering and redecorate the whole of upstairs but some of the rooms need doing anyway.

What do you think?

 

[Schoolmarm]

If you mean ceilings, then that sounds like a good plan.
One room at a time, emptied and then plastic sheeted should do the job. The filth will be unimaginable.

 

[Flyfisher]

How 'long' are the sloping parts of your ceilings? I'm thinking that it may not be necessary to remove all the plasterboard inside the affected rooms. Removing a 'panel' of, say, 12-inches wide should allow you to get a full arms-length up and down the rafters to remove the insulation - probably a span of about 5-feet.

This wouldn't eliminate the resulting mess but it would minimise it. Then repatch with new plasterboard, re-skim and re-decorate.

Of course, this assumes that you can replace the insulation from within the attic space as, presumably, you would have done had you been able to remove all the existing insulation from up there in the first place.

Anyway, just a thought before you start ripping your entire ceilings to pieces.

Out of interest, would you mind revealing the quotation for doing all the work from the outside? I presume a large part of the cost would be for scaffolding.

 

[vicky whitworth]

It's so frustrating when you are neither practical yourself nor married to a practical man. So we aren't very good at working out exactly how difficult it would be to slot the solid insulation down from the loft but I do hear others comments on here about it would be hard to do that and get a good fit.

The sloping parts are about 5' long from the flat part of the ceiling to where it joins the vertical wall, and that's over the whole length of the house and on both sides. It's a long and narrow cottage - about 4m wide ie: one room depth, and 14m long.

Flyfisher, the quote to take off the whole lot of roof tiles was about £15,000 including VAT and sort the problem that way, and then the scaffolding was another £2000.00 plus VAT on top of that. I'm not complaining that this is unreasonable for all the work involved it's just that this is an unexpected expense which I hadn't budgeted for, and is a job that can't wait while I save up. And it's a very boring way to spend a lot of money on a problem that it seems to me should be able to be fixed much easier than this. But what do I know - I'm still too scared to venture into the loft very far.

I like the idea of making a smaller opening in the sloping ceiling to get the insulation out but I'm not sure about getting the solid board in from the loft. I'll have a think about this.

 

[Flyfisher]

I can see the problem of replacing the insulation without removing all the plasterboard. I've not used solid insulation myself but I understand the key to its effectiveness is to ensure there are no air gaps around it and I don't see how that could be easily achieved by sliding blocks of the stuff between the rafters from above. Hmm. Tricky.

What about increasing the attic ventilation? Installing a couple of airbricks in each gable wall would surely be easier, not to mention cheaper, than replacing all the insulation. I don't see how it could do any harm. The attic will almost certainly dry out over the coming summer and the improved ventilation might be sufficient to prevent any condensation next winter.

Just another thought.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Dear Flyfisher, I think you are right. What have we got to lose by trying to increase ventilation, increasing the insulation in the loft and seeing what happens? If it dries great, and if it doesn't we have had another year to save up to pay for this. You are a star. Thank you.

 

[Flyfisher]

I feel I should just clarify that I'm not a building professional, so please don't take my suggestion as being the definitive answer.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Flyfisher, never fear. I won't come knocking on your door in the dark of the night if we're still ringing with water in a year's time. Promise.

 

[Feltwell]

Flyfisher, the quote to take off the whole lot of roof tiles was about £15,000 including VAT and sort the problem that way, and then the scaffolding was another £2000.00 plus VAT on top of that. I'm not complaining that this is unreasonable for all the work involved it's just that this is an unexpected expense which I hadn't budgeted for, and is a job that can't wait while I save up.

Vicky, that sounds excessive to me - unless you've got a seriously large house! 3 years ago I replaced the complete roof on my house - a large and very complicated roof, and 3 storeys up so lots of scaffolding - for less than £15k, and that included the scaffolding, insulating the new roof, some joinery work such as new dormer windows and all new roof tiles. I'd be tempted to get another quote for the work.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Hello, do you remember my condensation filled loft and the problem accessing the void between the sloping ceilings and the tiles? I have had another person out to take a look and that's raised a couple of questions which I'd really appreciate a view on.
1. How should loft insulation be laid? I thought the idea was to pile it high (250-300mm) and leave it fluffy but I've just been told that you should pile it high but that it needs pressing down/squashing 'or it wont work'. Who's right? I thought one layer went between the joists and the other layer at right angles to the first and across the joists.

2. We have a small gap internally at ceiling level where the old rubble stone wall is joined by the 1990s extension. Gap is about 5mm, over a distance of 4m, and I assume runs all the way through into the loft as all sorts of bits of grit falls down through it. This needs sealing to stop warm air getting into the loft. I appreciate that it is formed where the old and the new are not tied in and move at different rates. How should we seal it? It has been suggested that we fill it using cement from inside the loft but that would presumably be the timbers and the ceiling of the old against the rubble stone wall - and then using a silicon filler inside (it's the ceiling above the stair well). I don't think I'm explaining this very well. Cement and silicon don't sound very traditional. Thoughts?

At least this person who came out to look at it today suggested just removing a few rows of tiles in order to access the void rather than stripping the whole roof. If we have that done do you think we should then use breathable roof membrane across the bit that's been stripped (the rest of the roof has old fashioned roofing felt)?

 

[skier-hughes]

I've finally given up on the removal of the insulation between roof and ceiling. I've tried an industrial vacuum, well semi industrial, and that wouldn't budge it. I bought a hand cultivator, about 5 feet long with 3 prongs on it, which pushed closer together fit into the gap, but after another hour of trying today I'd got little more than a handful out.
I have a feeling this was put in with the roof and is trapped with the battens/tirles/rafters.
By my reckoning about 3 solid weeks of work should remove it all if it goes at the same rate as today !!

I'm going to insulate as is and work out what to do afterwards It's been like this for at least the last 20 years I believe and I have only ever seen one slight patch of dampness, well actually frozen dampness in the last 5 years I've spent going up and down the loft.

We have several small holes which no doubt give some ventilation, should I perhaps put some airbricks in to give more? Particularly in the one corner that I did see damp evidence? There are some windows in the far end and it is only one section of the roof that is built likie this, so 3/4 or more is fine.

You have until I make a cup of tea and drink it to persuade me into another course of action

 

[vicky whitworth]

Interesting to see how you are progressing. The last builder who came out to look at our similar problem is the first one to say that he thought he could get the insulation out and fit the solid board insulation in its place from inside the loft. He said he couldn't do it for one third of the roof as the purlins at that end were too close to the eaves but he could do it for two-thirds of the roof. So he suggested try that, seal the unused hatches, put in lapvents at ridge level and insulate the floor of the loft properly and see if the loft then dried out. If it doesn't then we would have to have the other third done by taking tiles off. He's gone away to quote for that (and the re-pointing and other external lime work which is what he's an expert in). I only hope that when he thinks about it in the cold light of day he doesn't change his mind. If he does we have also had a quote to take off four rows of tiles all round and tackle it that way.
It's a nightmare. My elderly neighbour as exactly the same problem. She has no money so her solution has been to open all the windows upstairs and the loft hatch and sort of blow it dry. It's jolly cold but seems to be working.

 

[skier-hughes]

As mine is pretty dry up there, I'm banking on it staying that way.
I made another draught hole, I pulled out what looks like an old iron bar, well actually I hit my head on it and found it was loose so it just came out. I'm going to get an old electric cable out as well ina bit for yet another hole, worst can happen is birds come in or wasps, so will just need to keep an eye on things, but as it is now nice and clean, with no hay/straw/sawdust it'll be much easier to tell if we have any residents.

Insulation is now going down, but have to go out in a bit so won't get it done tonight, should be finished tomorrow night................