Heating Systems

[Penners]

I think the point about log management is often overlooked in the hazy romantic notion of woodburners - it can be time consuming, and also logs take up a great deal of storage space.

Thankfully it's the self-appointed job of the other half, who quite enjoys it. If left up to me I suspect we'd freeze.

"Log management" eh? Sounds ever so difficult and technical!

It's my job here, too - a male preserve in most homes, I suspect, as it's one of those hairy-@rsed "hunter-gatherer" tasks.

As for the "management" bit... well, I do have to contact Dave at the other end of the village when our log stocks are running low. He then chugs round with his old Fergie and trailer, and we put the world to rights while we unload.

Thank goodness I took all those A-levels.

 

[Nemesis]

Well, here the logs are delivered and stored in the old chicken sheds which are on land down the drive, and have to be brought up in barrowloads and then brought into the house a load at a time. We also have other sources of supply (occasionally including our own tress which have to be cut back or have blown down...) which mean logs have to be at times stacked and stored for seasoning and then cut up into suitable sizes.

Our usual source of supply (Nat Trust) actually has run out and often other suppliers are unreliable in as much as wood isn't as dry as it ought to be.

It's time consuming, and not everyone considers the nitty gritty of delivery and storage and ash disposal.

 

[worms]

We could easily get bogged down in the economics of how to value our own time inputs here. Personally I place a value rather than a cost on the recreational aspects of early morning forays to the forest with my chainsaw!

As for GSHP costs, I wonder if we are still caught up with viewing the technology as being "specialist" and paying silly costs for installations that are fairly mundane when viewed as a set of technical components?

 

[Nemesis]

It's all OK for the able bodied, but husband recently damaged his back at the gym (bending down to tie his shoelaces in the changing room... snigger not....) and wood can be heavy to lump about. For those at work all day, I suspect the romance of a trip for logs to an external store in the rain and dark may pall at times.

It does take a fair bit room also to store them. Terraced cottages may not have enough spare space.

These things need to be thought about before spending cash installing a wood burner.

 

[Penners]

ash disposal.

Put it on t'compost heap!

 

[Nemesis]

We do - but those in smaller places may not have one!

 

[Flyfisher]

All good points, unfortunately. I say 'unfortunately' because I was so looking forward to 'doing the right thing' and being as self-sufficient and sustainable as possible but the more I research things the more I'm becoming convinced that my previously uninformed enthusiasm was probably misplaced.

I'm beginning to think that a simple, latest design, oil-fired condensing boiler is the most sensible solution to provide DHW and background heating, together with keeping the open coal fires we already have. Not very 'green', I know, but I do have to consider the sustainability of my bank account. Maybe I can ease my conscience a little by using solar water panels to preheat the water and at least reduce my oil consumption?

Nickc's points about capital costs are very valid. I'm lucky enough to have plenty of space for a GSHP, but £30-40k buys an awful lot of oil! I really can't imagine many people investing in anything with a 90-year payback.

It's all a bit depressing really


PS: Penners, I probably missed the irony about the wood from Argentina because it was "wood pellets", so I'm not sure what other use it might have been for. I certainly agree it's a lesser evil to use such fuel once it's already been shipped halfway around the world, but I'd have a nagging guilt about creating such a demand in the first place.

 

[Flyfisher]

ash disposal.

Put it on t'compost heap!

I put our ash in the wheely bin (when it has cooled of course). We don't seem to generate much more than one bucket per week. Mind you, I might have to revisit this strategy if they ever get around to charging for refuse disposal by weight, as I've been reading about recently :roll:

 

[Nemesis]

A woodburner can be a wonderful thing, I love ours, I'm simply trying to make people consider some of the less romantic aspects.

 

[Flyfisher]

Does anyone here with a multifuel burner actually use it with coal as well as wood? What are the pros and cons? Is it only possible to use them with smokeless fuels or will ordinary 'house coal' work OK?

I know such burners are supposed to be more efficient than an open fire, but I don't know anyone who has used one with coal. My parents have a wood burner but it seems to get through a lot of logs for not much heat, whereas our open coal fire seems to throw out much more heat.

I know that coal has a higher calorific value than wood, and that wood burning performance depends on the moisture content, but does anyone know the 'cost per unit heat' figures for coal and 'typical' logs?

My gut feeling is that coal is cheaper and easier to use than wood, although I guess there is a very wide range of wood costs depending on how you source it as well as how much chopping and sawing input needed.

My thinking is along the lines of getting a multiburner to be used mainly with coal but supplemented with wood as and when I can. I'm also thinking about one with a back-boiler that can be used to supplement the DHW and radiators.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[Penners]

Does anyone here with a multifuel burner actually use it with coal as well as wood?

I don't, but our woodburner will burn either.

Yes, coal produces more heat than wood, but not without an environmental cost. If you leave coal underground, its carbon is locked up forever. However, burning it releases that carbon back into the atmosphere.

Wood, on the other hand, will slowly rot when the tree dies and fall over. This releases its carbon into the atmosphere. When you burn it, you merely hasten this process.

And the carbon released has all been absorbed from the atmosphere during the tree's life. So it's a carbon neutral process.

 

[biffvernon]

and the ash from wood is fine on the compost heap (especially good for raspberries) while coal ash is best used for making paths and foundations.

Keep the wheeliebins empty.

 

[Flyfisher]

I understand, and agree, with all that, which is why I have been looking for alternatives. But faced with massive capital outlays and/or a significant additional workload it's very tempting to stick with something more convenient and cheaper in the long term.

I suspect we've all been seduced by cheap and convenient energy and have had it rather too easy in the main, hence the alternatives not looking immediately appealing. No doubt this will change, but I'm not convinced I want, or can afford, to pioneer such changes.

 

[skier-hughes]

We have used both in our burner. Though only used coal as the previous owner very kindly filled the oil tank and had a load of coal delivered as we were moving in during March adn it was snowing... he didn't want us to freeze.

The coal doesn't appear to give out that much more heat if you keep the wood well and regularly stocked. Coal does burn for an awful lot longer, so you don't have to refil every 30 mins or so and you can even have a warm fire in the morning.

As for smokelss or not, it depends on the area you are in I suspect!!! We used normal coal.

For teh GSHP we were quaoted £9k for the equipment. Even though we have to get it round/under/over the moat, I doubt we would end up paying £20-30k for installation. I was looking at approx £15k total.

Our wood collecting is Jo's job, I used to do it, but she finds it somehow relaxing. Even though it is daown at teh entrance gate, some 100+m walk.

Our ash goes down all the blooming rabbit holes being dug in the garden :x

Graham

 

[MdB]

Our ash goes down all the blooming rabbit holes being dug in the garden

Hot cross bunnies? Sorry.

 

[Flyfisher]

The coal doesn't appear to give out that much more heat if you keep the wood well and regularly stocked. Coal does burn for an awful lot longer, so you don't have to refil every 30 mins or so and you can even have a warm fire in the morning.

Yeah, that's another problem with wood, it burns too fast and needs constant attention. Unless it's really cold in the day I usually light our open fire at round 5pm and it'll burn for at least a couple of hours before needing just one more refill most evenings.

As for smokelss or not, it depends on the area you are in I suspect!!! We used normal coal.

I was thinking of the burner itself rather than regulations; we're not in a smokeless zone. I'd heard that some fuels can 'tar up' the works, but maybe not. Guess it depends on the design, which is good because house coal is much cheaper than smokeless!

For teh GSHP we were quaoted £9k for the equipment. Even though we have to get it round/under/over the moat, I doubt we would end up paying £20-30k for installation. I was looking at approx £15k total.

That sounds more like it. What was the kW rating of the equipment your were quoted? My original thought was to install the ground loops myself - from what I've read it looks like a pretty straight forward digging job, so expensive to pay for but cheap to DIY.

Our ash goes down all the blooming rabbit holes being dug in the garden :x

That gives me an idea - we don't really have rabbit problems but get loads of molehills :wink:

 

[NT]

Radiators
---------

For low hydronic water temps, fanned convectors are an alternative to oversize rads. The advantage is small size. Another alt to oversize rads is to add low speed air movement behind smaller rads, this can increase output enough to reduce rad size to some extent, but not greatly.

Another option is a heated partition wall. Heating the whole wall with microbore means needing less separate radiator area.

 

[NT]

Wood
----

Re buying wood, some people pay to dispose of it, and some of those are willing to either give it to you if you collect, or in some cases to dump it at your property. DIY shed wood offcuts, builders and skip charges, tradespeople, professional gardeners that need to dispose of tree bits etc. Leafletting the village to let them know what you want can produce surprising results. Freecycle is sometimes another way to find such folk, depends where you live though.

An area enclosed by a dwarf wall can avoid the need to stack wood, and help ensure anyone delivering wood keeps it within where it wont be a problem.


A woodburner large enough to take 4' logs saves a lot of chopping and will burn longer. Many waste woods can just go in whole.


Chainsaw safety is a real issue, addressing this is only sensible if you're using one year in year out.

 

[NT]

Solar
-----
For pool heating there is one option that towers over the others, and thats solar heating. Its especially well suited to pools as a result of the consequences of low output temperature and large energy demand.

This means collectors can be nothing more than black pipe coiled on the ground (better collectors cost litle more), which can easily harvest 10kW or whatever you need. To use fuel for a pool just doesnt make sense.

When appearance is a problem, there are some options.
1. Plant a border of bushes between you and the collector
2. Lay the pipes round the pool and tarmac the area. This costs more, but is the neatest solution visually, as nothing is visible.
3. Turn the collector into some sort of pretty object
4. Put the heating pipes on a wall or roof somewhere nearby.

Install cost for pool solar is relatively low, and payback figures very good.



For solar HW, here is a very low cost preheater design:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/HorzPondDHW/DHWPondProto.pdf
http://www.builditsolar.com/
also has a whole page of tested solar heating options.

 

[skier-hughes]

As for tar etc, no idea really, not done any comparisons. Though in days gone by there wasn't any smokeless fuel was there? Regular sweeping should be done I assume but our burner doesn't have much to tar up.

The size of GSHP was 9kw for a 200 sqm house. *£9k was just the cost of delivering the equipment to us, then commissioning the installation once completed, so we could get £1,500 back as a grant.

We have a nice digger man who'd dig our trenches, two 63m long, 1m wide, 1m deep and at least 2m apart. 3" soft sand in bottom, 500m of pipework coiled in trenches in figure of 8, 3" sand on top, refil with soil.

The unit is about 600x600mmx2m.

* Ooops reading my notes, it was £6,900 NOT £9,000.... even better.

Graham