Heating Systems

[Flyfisher]

A highly wasteful system is not green, green means getting away from wasteful systems.

I don't agree. Green is being renewable and sustainable. It's little to do with being wasteful as such. Wasteful is bad if the resource is non-renewable and/or detrimental to the planet when used; like fossil fuels. Wasteful is nowhere near as bad if the resource is renewable; it's not particularly bad if you leave all your PV-powered lights on is it? Or heat a poorly insulated period property with solar heating?

Maybe it's a question of scale; an entire country vs an individual. I'm sure it must be 'greener' for me to grow my own wood for heating than to consume oil or other fossil fuels for the same purpose, no matter how 'wasteful' the wood may be. Personally, my 'carbon footprint' would be lowered. But I agree it may not be scalable to the country as a whole - and isn't this the problem with many of these new so-called sustainable technologies?

I don't understand why it is worth growing fruit but not wood?

Ah.

Enjoy your wood, and I hope you dont get infirm in your old age. Just getting to the loo is hard enough when the arthritis gets bad.

I understand your point about getting old and infirm; we all become less capable and more reliant on others, which usually means paying others to do things we can no longer do ourselves. You're right that I won't be able to chop wood if I get arthritis, but I won't be able to pick fruit either so both activities are potentially wasteful . . . unless I pay someone to chop or pick for me. So what's the difference?

(oops, we're off-topic again )

 

[biffvernon]

I once read an article in the Farmers Weekly which suggested that a typical (ie poorly insulated) farmhouse needed 7 acres of birch coppice to heat it, cutting an acre a year on a 7 year rotation.

No, those figures are way out. You need much less land to heat a house with coppice wood. Still not a solution for the millions of urban house though.

 

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps we should not encourage the wider adoption of woodburners

Its not the woodburners, its the pellet-fired biomass boilers that will cause problems. At the moment, I get most of my firewood from the brashings left behind by forestry felling operations, the collection licence is free so all it costs is time and personal energy (OK and a little fuel for the chain saw). Current developments will probably see more of the brashings collected for pelleting, and what is currently a waste product will have a much higher commercial value.

A selfish view, I know - the wider benefits to society are obvious...

The selfish perspective is understandable, but isn't the real problem that it can't be scaled up for country-wide use. Yes, some people can burn wood, it works OK, it's greener than burning coal and it reduces fossil fuel consumption - but if everyone tried it things would soon fall apart. Maybe solar energy is the only really sustainable technology that everyone in the country could adopt? But even then it's not a 100% solution so what will fill the gap?
(cue Private Frasier from Dad's Army )

 

[biffvernon]

so what will fill the gap?

Nothing. There will be a gap. We will use much less energy because what we want will not be there. Despite our puny efforts to use energy more effectively and to produce it sustainable there will be the biggest economic depression ever and, from time to time, the lights will go out. It is time to panic. Then knit bedsocks (thick ones for folk with single glazing).

 

[Nemesis]

'But we're straying from the topic of how best to heat a house and I wouldn't want to be moderated'

Fat chance!

Straying from the topic positively encouraged!!!

PPUK is like an old house - rambling, shambling, with odd nooks and crannies and inhabited at times by persons who could be similarly described - yet so much more satisfying than modern ticky tacky!

Anyhow - typing keeps ypu warm. Typing furiously cos the idiots on PPUK er sorry my esteemed fellow posters (and Penners) have not a clue keeps me warm.

I generate vast amounts of hot air which keeps the room so much warmer.

Anyhow - ten acres - yes plant a coppiced wood. With snowdrops and bluebells under foot. Hazel is great stuff. Once established it grows wonderfully fast. If nothing else you will have something joyful to look at, the catkins are beautiful and the nuts will keep you and the wildlife over the winter. Leaves can make leaf mould.

You can always flog off some of the straighter wood as bean poles...

Fruit I agree is too much like hard work in large amounts, although a small orchard will be useful.

The alternative is a herd of cows and harness the methane, but that's even more too much like hard work.

You could also use some of that land for ground source heat pump stuff.

Ev

 

[thiambal]

Grow the wood - chop it youself - but do so as far as possible inside you house (i.e. cut down big bits and drag them inside for further chopping) -

The actvity will keep you nice and warm and you will not need heating.

Give the chopped wood to some who has got too old or ill to do so themselves they can burn it to heat their home.

This way you solve the problem of heating two houses for the price of growing and chopping wood for one - there by increasingly productivity by 100% and making it a green option.

 

[Penners]

PPUK is like an old house - rambling, shambling, with odd nooks and crannies and inhabited at times by persons who could be similarly described - yet so much more satisfying than modern ticky tacky!

Now that is poetry - sheer poetry.

my esteemed fellow posters (and Penners)

Oi - whadduv I done? Why won't you esteem me too?

Just for that, take this

 

[Nemesis]

Oooh - like I said in the other post - it's cos it's more than esteem! It's just worship! I hang on your every syllable! And you cheer me up!

(Sad about Grimmers and Brunny though... wish they would return and cheer us up also.)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Penners]

Sad about Grimmers and Brunny

Perhaps the relationship hit the rocks. I know that Grimmers always liked his Scotch that way.

 

[middi]

Roll on global warming.

 

[Penners]

Roll on global warming.

It'll just make the ice in your Scotch melt faster.

 

[middi]

Well, at least it will stop people scouring the countryside searching for the next wood copse or the next oil dump for a while.

Mind you if they remembered where the buried all the cr*p we produced there may be enough methane there to last another hundred years.

As to rocks in the scotch, I would only feel sorry for buying the woodburners .

 

[NT]

"Roll on global worming."

I really hope that wont be necessary


NT

 

[veritas]

AS a follow on from this I would love some advice on getting a multi fuel burner for my place. I have a victorian mid terrace, 2 up , 2 down with the small kitchen & bathroom add on at the back. At first I wanted to get one to fit into the old range open in the back room as an asthetic thing but recently Ive been thinking if theres a way to use it to cut down my gas bills! I have 5 radiators run from a combi boiler but would love to reduce the gas consumption because lets face it, they are never going to let the prices come down. I would be grateful for any imput.

 

[Nemesis]

Have you room for a fuel store, and easy access for delivery/ash removal facilities?

 

[DaveBrigg]

Our wood pellet boiler has taken care of a skip load of scrap destined for a bonfire, the remnants of a barn demolition, diverted from their journey to land-fill, sacks of off-cuts from a local saw mill, a couple of tonnes of environmentally friendly pellets from the forests of Argentina (and the pallet they arrived on) and even the odd set of used exercise books. Our installer explained how someone had even used the boiler to dispose of their pet cat (after it had died!) - apparently it was very messy, and not an ideal heat source considering the time they take to catch.
Our energy consumption dropped rapidly when I realised how much work it was to collect, carry, chop and store the various materials, and when the boiler started breaking down three times a night.

 

[Flyfisher]

"Environment friendly" and "from the forests of Argentina" sounds a little oxymoronic to me; there must be a fair bit of fossil fuel used in the transportation alone. It was also disappointing to hear about the unreliability of the boiler, although I appreciate one bad experience may not be representative of such systems.

Although this topic has generated some interesting discussion, the most interesting point, for me, is that no real consensus seems to have emerged about the best type of system to install. Too many variables I guess

 

[nickc]

I faced the same sort of dilemma and after much research haven't really decided yet.
I've got a large, listed, mostly timber framed farmhouse in a windy south-facing spot with an outdoor swimming pool. Currently heated by oil (small pool boiler - no longer working; Aga; house boiler about 8 years old and working OK but undersized). We have just installed 2 modern woodburners (I can recommend the Rika Esprit as being extremely efficient - modern design is not everybody's style but it suits our 16thC room).

I spent ages getting quotes and spec for a ground source heat pump, which seemed ideal for background heating as we have a couple of fields for the loops. The problem is the capital cost. They seem to get you on the extras and the total incl. oversized radiators (underfloor was not an option) ws looking about £30-40,000.

Even though the annual savings were substantial the pay-back time was far too long at about 15 years if you ignore the cost of serving the extra mortgage. However, once your deduct say 5% mortgage cost on the capital expenditure this brings down the annual saving to peanuts and our payback was looking at 90 years!

The companies always do a simple arithmetic payback calculation which does not take into account the interest charged (or lost) on capital expenditure.

The conclusion? Not sure. We've invested £7,000 in 2 modern woodburners, although largely for aesthetics and to seal gaping inglenooks. Looking at switching to gas (£1,500 for connection) with new condensing boiler for main house and keep the Aga and pool on oil (re-using the 8 year old oil boiler) so we have our bets hedged. Also looking at discreet solar panel or heat pump for the pool. Any advice welcome.

I agree about not bothering to coppice your own wood. The time involved would far outstrip the relatively cheap cost of logs. The only warning I would have for anyone thinking of using logs as a major part of their heating is that you do spend a lot of time moving them around: wet logs delivered to yard, move and stack under cover, then move indoors and stack by fire. Repeat on a never-ending basis. Can be fun but also a chore.

Nick

 

[Penners]

"Environment friendly" and "from the forests of Argentina" sounds a little oxymoronic to me

I suspect there was a strong streak of irony in Dave's post, Flyfisher.

However, I would add that - if the timber has already been imported for another purpose, and if it had come to the end of its useful life - then burning it is probably slightly more environmentally friendly than leaving it to rot. The net carbon emission will be the same with each process, and at least burning it reduces the possibility that fossil fuels would be burned to produce the same ration of heat.

 

[Nemesis]

I think the point about log management is often overlooked in the hazy romantic notion of woodburners - it can be time consuming, and also logs take up a great deal of storage space.

Thankfully it's the self-appointed job of the other half, who quite enjoys it. If left up to me I suspect we'd freeze.

Stoves can be costly to buy and install, costs such as chimney lining need to be factored in too. Fuel (wood and solid fuel) can be bulky to store and ash removal is something many don't consider. So for anyone thinking it may save on gas costs - well, it might in some ways, but there's a great deal of outlay to recoup, and logs can be expensive if buying in. Not everwhere has a readily available supply either.

The costs of GSHP sound rather more than I had hoped - staggeringly so - interesting point about the oversized rads. The technology, as I've said before, doesn't I think heat to such high temps as conventional heating?