Dale farm apply to English Heritage for listing

[Pford75]

And I think that more and more people are becoming tired of those at Dale Farm picking and choosing when they wish to obey the law. As for being 'homeless' - this BBC new report

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T253zUOfXe0

which claims many of them own property back in Ireland. If the public are strongly opposed to this action, we can safely assume that Basildon council will not be reelected.

Whilst there is a similarity between the two cases (in that they are both breaches of planning law) - It is easier to have sympathy with the Devon family Biff links to, since they do not appear to be impinging upon the local community.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Where are the pictures of the Devon family's set-up? I'd like to see.

Here in Grantham we've had get-togethers with many of the locals which express deep distrust of people wanting to live an alternative lifestyle on the fields that have recently been for sale. Personally, I have zero tolerance of any kind of agricultural or domestic messes and don't think any legal walker, or dweller, deserves to look at another's detritus. I will go at night and simply remove it. By " it" I mean plastic sacks, refuse, scruffy caravans, weeds, laundry, building waste, broken down bits of machinery or vehicles, buckets, pipes, sickly or dead animals, litter, heaped earth, or general detritus. There is no law on this, but distributing this kind of stuff around your legally owned property isn't pleasant and is likely to make you unpopular with those who have to share the environment.

The laws are there for very good reasons and I'm afraid people who flagrantly ignore them are putting themselves and their children at risk.

 

[robgil]

What ever happened to the people who wanted to set up camp on the fields out your way then Joce?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Who knows? They still have their silly Freeman forum, but a permanent ban has been put on my IP address so I can't see what they're up to. Most of the land up here has been bought by people who just want to sit on it and watch its value escalate when Planning Permission is granted. :roll: I don't think PP will be granted, and in the meantime all sorts of splendid natural phenomenoms are occuring: vast seas of poppies, acres of blackberries, sheltering partridge and guinea fowl and pheasants. I found a pygmy shrew on Saturday! And so many bats and owls and hawks, it's just fantastic. The man who bought the bit adjoining ours is palnting a wild flower meadow, and the bit behind our house has had a splendid hedgerow planted that is speciallty thought out to attract English wildlife. Long may it last.

 

[NSchwood]

It's shocking what they believe they can achieve!

 

[biffvernon]

...just want to sit on it and watch its value escalate when Planning Permission is granted.

If the government gets its way and frees up the planning controls the potential building land prices will plummet.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've read complaints that building companies are sitting on their 'land banks' and specifically not building new houses - allegedly to maintain house prices. Just because planning consent is granted doesn't mean that building will automatically proceed.

A prime site in our village tried to get planning for new houses a few years ago but the council placed so many conditions, including building a new footpath to the school, that the development was abandoned. The site is now selling used cars.

I'm sure all the intentions were good but such restrictions can change behaviour in unpredictable and not always favourable ways. And, of course, the same principle applies if planning controls were completely lifted.

 

[robgil]

But I dont see why one law can be applied differently in different circumstances.
For instance Barrette putting up a housing estate is basically permanent, travellers parking caravans could be seen as a none permanent development. I know plenty of people who were not allowed to build on their land so they use old converted horse boxes and the like as their offices instead, I built three of them.

The real issue here is the locals (council tax payers) not wanting more travellers in the area. and putting pressure on the council. NIMBY will not solve the problem , it will only pass it on the someone else.
I guess I just believe in resolving problems rather than brushing them out the door for other people to clean up.

I am pretty sure if people sat around a table and actually looked for an amicable solution they might just find one.

Whats happening at dale farm anyway? I haven't been keeping up.

 

[biffvernon]

I've read complaints that building companies are sitting on their 'land banks' and specifically not building new houses - allegedly to maintain house prices.

The're going to be very embarrassed when the government has its way with planning rules and the price of development land plummets. It's one of the silver linings to the dark cloud.

 

[Flyfisher]

That premise is only likely if it really is planning constraints that are holding up house building. I realise my one example where this was not the case may not be representative, but there's certainly more to getting houses built than just granting planning permission. For example, until the banks start lending again to first-time buyers on more realistic terms then demand for new houses will remain low and thus discourage the developers to 'cash in' their land banks.

Also, since much of these 'land banks' were purchased (or, indeed, only obtained through options to purchase) at near-agricultural prices, I suspect it'll be a long time before the companies concerned will be "embarrassed" if development land prices do decline.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Most of the people I know who have bought land are hoping for it to provide pensions and wealth for their grandchildren. They are thinking in the long term.

I can't see three acres being worth less than 18k invested in stocks and shares in an uncertain market in twenty or thirty year's time, whether PP is granted or not. I think it's probably a fairly sensible investment.

And who knows, maybe food growing land will be more important in thirty year's time - we'll eat more local, seasonal food? Who knows what will have happened by then.

 

[Matt Green]

until the banks start lending again to first-time buyers on more realistic terms....

It's entirely arguable that banks are lending on realistic terms, i.e.: the number of mortgages available diminishes rapidly as you approach 90% loan-to-value. I think the house price to average income ratio needs to be more realistic and that's being driven further apart by folks who've made money on the last property boom buying second homes or divorcing (because they don't have to work at a marriage now they have money for an easy option- don't get me started).

Either:
a) house prices are massively inflated
b) there are too many people wanting houses and driving demand
c) property ownership is being driven beyond the means of the working classes due to a lack of effective taxation on second homes
d) all of the above

 

[Flyfisher]

until the banks start lending again to first-time buyers on more realistic terms....

It's entirely arguable that banks are lending on realistic terms,

I understand your point, but I was thinking more from a first-time buyer's perspective where a 90% mortgage is very hard to find these days and 75-80% mortgages seems to be nearer the norm, judging by the experience of my nephew and the children of many friends.

Even a 90% mortgage on a £150k house/flat leaves £15k to be found, which is practically impossible when such buyers have just started work. And saving up such a sum is also practically impossible when rents are so high and student loans need repaying. It's Catch 22 unless they are fortunate to have someone who can lend/give them the necessary deposit.

When I look back to the first house we bought (1983 - during a similar recession), it required a 93% mortgage and two graduate salaries. Today, two similar graduate salaries would not be sufficient for a 93% mortgage (even if it were available) on that same house.

Seems like kids today can fairly complain that we had it too easy.

 

[biffvernon]

Either:
a) house prices are massively inflated
b) there are too many people wanting houses and driving demand
c) property ownership is being driven beyond the means of the working classes due to a lack of effective taxation on second homes
d) all of the above

I vote for a) as the most important on that list, especially for anyone about to buy a house. Prices will drop.

(Don't blame me if I'm wrong.)

 

[Flyfisher]

It might well be a good thing for house prices to halve overnight but it simply won't happen unless mortgages are also halved. The threat of negative equity sees to that.

In practice, most people will simply stay put in their house rather than sell it for considerably less than they think it is, or should be, worth. So, in practice, the number of house sales falls during recessions but not the actual house prices (by too much anyway).

 

[Feltwell]

Seems like kids today can fairly complain that we had it too easy.

I agree, it's so hard for those starting out now to be able to afford a deposit and a mortgage.

We were saving up for our 5% deposit on our first house back in 1997, when the bank came up with the offer that couldn't be refused - a 100% mortage at a very competitive interest rate and no tie-in. So we grabbed that offer and bought ourselves a very nice first home, a decent 3 bed 1920's semi with a good sized garden.

2 years later, which was about when we would have managed to save up our 5% deposit, and house prices had gone up so much there is no way we could have afforded that house - a small 2 bed flat would have *just* been within our means.

With first time buyers being asked to stump up much greater deposits on much more expensive houses, I have no idea what we would do if we were starting out now. The "Bank of Mum & Dad" was never an option, not that I would have wanted it to have been.

I can see that by the time my kids are at University age we will be more like Germany - students stay in the parental home and go to a local university, and renting for life is much more the norm.

 

[Keith Bowman]

..........In practice, most people will simply stay put in their house rather than sell it for considerably less than they think it is, or should be, worth. So, in practice, the number of house sales falls during recessions but not the actual house prices (by too much anyway).

I would agree with that, except that there is now a significant number of houses advertised on Rightmove etc as "new price". "New" presumably means "lower", but I haven't any idea how much lower.

 

[Pford75]

I would also add that for some reason, whenever people are trying to illustrate the challenges of house affordability, they always quote some kind of comparison between average house price and earnings. Part of the problem today is that many first time buyers want to move into the 'house of their dreams', seduced by interior design magazines and property programmes. Look at the number of 'waterfront apartments' which have sprung up around the country with their high design and even higher prices.

There are places out there at quite low prices (My estate agent brother has several on his books in Essex at £50k)...but these are either bungalows, probate sales or needing lots of work and perhaps in 'unfashionable' locations. The whole idea of the first home as a first step is disappearing and buyers aspiring to immediate luxury/design or trendy shops and bars. I would guess that most people on PPUK have done their share of DIY (on old houses and new) - but that skill seems sadly lacking today.

I learnt my (admittedly basic) DIY skills from my father - but there is a generation of children today whose father's never do any DIY - where are they learning from?

 

[Penners]

I learnt my (admittedly basic) DIY skills from my father - but there is a generation of children today whose father's never do any DIY - where are they learning from?

The likes of Sarah Beeny, I fear. :roll: Although her principle skill seems to be in the breeding department (which presumably doesn't count as do-it-yourself).

My father was actually crap at DIY. He could barely hang a picture. I picked up my DIY... er... 'skills' in the good old school of learning-by-doing.

 

[Flyfisher]

I would also add that for some reason, whenever people are trying to illustrate the challenges of house affordability, they always quote some kind of comparison between average house price and earnings. Part of the problem today is that many first time buyers want to move into the 'house of their dreams', seduced by interior design magazines and property programmes. Look at the number of 'waterfront apartments' which have sprung up around the country with their high design and even higher prices.

There are places out there at quite low prices (My estate agent brother has several on his books in Essex at £50k)...but these are either bungalows, probate sales or needing lots of work and perhaps in 'unfashionable' locations. The whole idea of the first home as a first step is disappearing and buyers aspiring to immediate luxury/design or trendy shops and bars. I would guess that most people on PPUK have done their share of DIY (on old houses and new) - but that skill seems sadly lacking today.

The apparent 'I-want-it-all-now' culture is a fair point. But even a £50k house would require a £10k deposit for an 80% mortgage. And a 'project' house might not even qualify for a mortgage as high as 80% due to the perceived risk of recovering the loan in the event of default, which itself might be deemed to be a higher risk with young first-time buyers dependent on some serious DIY.