Dale farm apply to English Heritage for listing

[biffvernon]

Oh, perleeease! If you have to cite the injustices of some 800 years ago in support of the Dale Farm people,

When did I support the Dale Farm people? All I've done is add a little history and context to the debate. I've never met any of them and for all I know they may be responsible for all the thefts of lead from historic buildings, would steal your grandchildren given half a chance and eat hedgehogs for breakfast. Or maybe not.

 

[Penners]

An Englishman's home is his castle, unless he is a traveller; then it is the open road.

That's fair enough, provided the traveller pays the required road tax and insurance premium for his motor vehicle, and doesn't decide to stop without permission on land that he doesn't own.

 

[robgil]

I'm sure their vehicles are legit, The rangie sport driven by travellers on the road out to Diss seems to be legit enough. They do own the land at Dale farm , yet they are not allowed to stay there.

The 70 mile an hour limit should be 50, it would seem the majority of people using motorways in this country dont know how to use them and letting them drive faster is simply a stupid idea, middle lane hogging anyone? :lol:

 

[Moo]

A key feature is living in very close proximity to their extended family and friends.

But surely, in that case, they're going to need more and more land for successive generations?

An Englishman's home is his castle, unless he is a traveller; then it is the open road.

... shouldn't that be "the open roadside"?

 

[Keith Bowman]

Golly, what an argumentative lot you are. If you want to be picky, ALL land in this kingdom is owned by the crown. You can occupy it as a freeholder, but that simply excuses you from feudal service, it doesn't mean you own it. And I wouldn't be surprised to find that the crown can take it back if you commit treason.

 

[Pford75]

Think it just goes to show what an emotive topic this is. Don't think it will happen at Dale Farm, but I do know of another situation where the local populace became so exasperated in the travellers seemingly ignoring the law (perhaps just the bad ones as Biff might say), that the local populace decided to do likewise and there was a real concern within the local constabulary that there would be major civil unrest. I don't condone this either, but when the majority feels ruled by a minority, things can escalate quickly.

 

[biffvernon]

when the majority feels ruled by a minority, things can escalate quickly.

Hmmm...the bankers are a minority...time for a revolution then?

 

[Flyfisher]

What sort of revolution though?

At the beginning of the current economic crisis, the banks were accused of causing problems by being too generous with their lending, leading to 'toxic debts' and the ensuing financial instability. Now the banks are accused of causing problems by not lending enough. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Any suggestions for alternatives?

 

[LadyArowana]

Any suggestions for alternatives?

Money stuffed under the mattress and barter, Biff can probably explain how it works.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm a big fan of bartering as it enables transactions to be conducted without the taxman taking a slice of the pie.

But, in practice, it's rarely a flexible or convenient way of conducting business. If it was, I rather suspect it would be more widely used. After all, there are no laws preventing it, are there?

 

[LadyArowana]

I'm a big fan of bartering as it enables transactions to be conducted without the taxman taking a slice of the pie.

But, in practice, it's rarely a flexible or convenient way of conducting business. If it was, I rather suspect it would be more widely used. After all, there are no laws preventing it, are there?

Bet DEFRA stick their oar in if you start growing too many fruits and veggies or rearing too many animals or laying too many eggs, there seem to be rules and regulations for just about everything. Plus the ever present risk of unintentionally sexually harrassing someone by including a suggestively malformed carrot in the basket ( I would post an image by way of illustration, but there may be visitors of a delicate disposition, and everyone else has quite enough of an imagination or curiosity for a Google image search ), or infringing religious sensibilities by offering a string of pork sausages! So it's probably a system best used between those with a sense of humour and lots of common sense, both qualities which seem to be diminishing in proportion to the level of regulation.

 

[Horace]

Further to Flyfisher's comment about the taxman. I'm afraid receiving payment in goods rather than money does not prevent the taxman from taking his slice. Its just easier to conceal the transaction....

Incidentally, I think tax is a key issue as far as the travelling commuity are concerned. I would love to know exactly how much income they declare and how much tax they pay. I suspect very little. My understanding it that HMIT is not over keen to get involved and, to be fair, I would imagine that investigating their dealings would be virtually impossible.

They seem keen to reap the benefits of our system without actually paying in to it. Not so much no taxaxtion without representation, rather no representation without taxaxtion.

I'm sure Biff would argue its the same for the bankers. Only thing is they paid s**t loads in tax to help Gordon Brown out (but have now got it all back via losses and bail outs).

 

[robgil]

Pretty much the same as every builder or trades man , in fact anyone who has to declare their own earnings etc etc. No body I know is so clean they would never accept a cash job or any other form of tax free payment. But it's easy to generalise about these things.
I know of a perticular travelling family who probably pay more tax in a year than I ever will.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm a big fan of bartering as it enables transactions to be conducted without the taxman taking a slice of the pie.

But, in practice, it's rarely a flexible or convenient way of conducting business. If it was, I rather suspect it would be more widely used. After all, there are no laws preventing it, are there?

Bet DEFRA stick their oar in if you start growing too many fruits and veggies or rearing too many animals or laying too many eggs, there seem to be rules and regulations for just about everything. Plus the ever present risk of unintentionally sexually harrassing someone by including a suggestively malformed carrot in the basket ( I would post an image by way of illustration, but there may be visitors of a delicate disposition, and everyone else has quite enough of an imagination or curiosity for a Google image search ), or infringing religious sensibilities by offering a string of pork sausages! So it's probably a system best used between those with a sense of humour and lots of common sense, both qualities which seem to be diminishing in proportion to the level of regulation.

And there's me thinking I was alone in my cynicism about modern life. How lovely to find a kindred spirit.

 

[Flyfisher]

Further to Flyfisher's comment about the taxman. I'm afraid receiving payment in goods rather than money does not prevent the taxman from taking his slice. Its just easier to conceal the transaction....

Astonishing! So when I give my neighbour a dozen eggs and they reciprocate with a Victoria sponge cake, the taxman is due a few eggs and a bg slice of cake?

I don't recall anywhere for that sort of thing on my tax return.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol:

And I really wish this generic derision of bankers would blow over. What is meant by the term? Just traders in general? Just the few individuals who committed fraud? Anyone who works in investment banking? Bankers, for the most part, are intelligent honest ordinary people who get paid a good wage that reflects intense hours and training. Decent salaries pay for tradesmen and other lovely things, and help the economy work.

Chris isn't a banker but he works in the computer side of investment banking where salaries are typically £600 -£700 per day for the ordinary folk. He frequently says that anyone could do what he does, if they were only prepared to put the hours into learning a bit of technical stuff. The people who work at the top, and who get far more, are more specialised, more stressed, and I think deserve a higher wage to reflect that.

 

[Flyfisher]

Unfortunately, the politics of envy is alive and well and it's always easier to blame a convenient scapegoat than think about the bigger picture.

I was reading another forum recently when someone was berating his bank as a bunch of money-grabbing b . . . well, you get the picture. It turned out they had been charging him fees of about £30 per month for the past few years. It then turned out it was because he went overdrawn each month simply because he had arranged his mortgage direct debit to be paid before his salary was paid in. It further turned out that he never bothered to check his bank statements and had also ignored the monthly letters from the bank recommending a small overdraft facility that would eliminate his monthly unauthorised overdraft penalties.

He was outraged that the bank had 'ripped him off' for years.

Of course, such stupidity is not entirely uncommon but what really amazed me was the amount of anti-banking vitriol in the replies, with no apparent sense of responsibility for managing his own affairs. Probably from people who run up unaffordable debts on credit cards and then blame the banks for letting them have the cards in the first place. :roll:

 

[biffvernon]

Bankers are used as a convenient scapegoat by those who do not yet grasp that continued growth on a finite planet will end in tears. So long as the global economy is tightly coupled to fossil fuel production and given that fossil fuel production has ceased to grow and that fractional reserve banking requires economic growth, we have an insoluble problem. Blaming bankers is a convenient distraction from our denial of economic reality.

Also, some bankers earn way too much money.

 

[Feltwell]

and, on the topic of laws that don't cater for minorities: regarding the proposed speed limit - should there be special dispensation for motorists who own cars (Ferraris and the like) that are happiest when travelling much, much faster than the specified limit?

No, because all cars, even Ferraris, have a major weak point.

It's the big fleshy bit sitting behind the steering wheel.

 

[robgil]

How come people doing other high stress jobs dont get 6-7 hundred quid a day? Nurses do long hours and get paid very little ,teachers get an average wage and I would say they have loads of stress to deal with. Chefs and even librarians all report high stress levels. I dont see too many librarians giving them selves massive bonuses every year while the rest of the economy goes down the tubes.
How do you become a banker then?