Jocelyn
Member
- Messages
- 99
- Location
- North Norfolk
ooooh Gareth, I shall remember that when I need a CO in the Holy Land! Do you have a direct line-----
Jocelyn
Jocelyn
- Thread starter tumbledown
- Start date
- Status
tumbledown
Member
- Messages
- 95
- Location
- Suffolk
Well, my original post certainly seemed to spark a lively debate.
There have been quite a few good points made about the difficulties of the conservation officers job, but good manners cost nothing.
No one should be spoken to in the own home the way I was. She was quite simply rude, and I concider that to also be unprofessional. Her behaviour cannot be justified under any circumstances.
However, she was as good as her word and informed the inforcement officer. He came around while I was out today and threatened my timber-framer with prosecution. Didn't even have the decency to speak to me first.
If I have made mistakes, then surely a little more information and guidance might be a good approach - not this 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' approach.
I've owned this house 9 months. As soon as I bought the house I rang and said I was planning some work, and could a conservation officer pay a visit to go through things with me. He refused and told me to just send in an application and he would consider it. I offered to come in to the office, but when I got there I was 'fobbed off" with someone else - and getting information was like drawing teeth. Once I got the application in it took 15 weeks to be processed. Finally, after many, many emails and phone calls I managed t get someone onsite.
I have removed a lot of material (concrete, cement, breezeblocks), but everything that has been discussed with one of the three conservation officers I've dealt with - so there are no surprises. He conservation officer knew that my timber framer was starting now - they have been in contact for the last 8 weeks. Why wait until he starts to say he shouldn't have?
I feel I have had no support from them at all. This has dragged out for 9 months already with most of the delays due to the council. I know this is not their problem, but I am under great financial pressure having to pay two mortgages, and all this has left me feeling very depressed. I really am starting to wish I hadn't enbarked on this project and let someone else buy the house and just slap some more cement over the increasingly decaying timber frame.
Still, if they hold me up much more it won't be my problem - they will be dealing with the bank after they reposess the house ....
There have been quite a few good points made about the difficulties of the conservation officers job, but good manners cost nothing.
No one should be spoken to in the own home the way I was. She was quite simply rude, and I concider that to also be unprofessional. Her behaviour cannot be justified under any circumstances.
However, she was as good as her word and informed the inforcement officer. He came around while I was out today and threatened my timber-framer with prosecution. Didn't even have the decency to speak to me first.
If I have made mistakes, then surely a little more information and guidance might be a good approach - not this 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' approach.
I've owned this house 9 months. As soon as I bought the house I rang and said I was planning some work, and could a conservation officer pay a visit to go through things with me. He refused and told me to just send in an application and he would consider it. I offered to come in to the office, but when I got there I was 'fobbed off" with someone else - and getting information was like drawing teeth. Once I got the application in it took 15 weeks to be processed. Finally, after many, many emails and phone calls I managed t get someone onsite.
I have removed a lot of material (concrete, cement, breezeblocks), but everything that has been discussed with one of the three conservation officers I've dealt with - so there are no surprises. He conservation officer knew that my timber framer was starting now - they have been in contact for the last 8 weeks. Why wait until he starts to say he shouldn't have?
I feel I have had no support from them at all. This has dragged out for 9 months already with most of the delays due to the council. I know this is not their problem, but I am under great financial pressure having to pay two mortgages, and all this has left me feeling very depressed. I really am starting to wish I hadn't enbarked on this project and let someone else buy the house and just slap some more cement over the increasingly decaying timber frame.
Still, if they hold me up much more it won't be my problem - they will be dealing with the bank after they reposess the house ....
Nemesis
Member
- Messages
- 9,402
- Location
- Planet Earth
There's a great deal I could say, and many I could raise this all with, for the greater good of everyone in the long term, but as clearly according to Moretyne my opinions and expertise and contacts aren't worth a candle I won't.
You have the local authority complaints procedure and ultimately the Ombudsman.
At the risk of being a further target, I point out that harsh as it may seem, many local authorities do not see that giving advice is part of their role. It's a bit like the police - you are expected to know the law, and breaking it - ignorance of it is no defence.
I'm not being unsympathetic, just a realist, and I would say I have a great deal of experience and expertise in all this but clearly that would only draw further stupidity.
I too feel depressed about so much regarding our built heritage, and after today I think that bulldozing the lot is possibly the best idea really.
I don't intend to bother posting here much now either, it's not worth the time I give it.
You have the local authority complaints procedure and ultimately the Ombudsman.
At the risk of being a further target, I point out that harsh as it may seem, many local authorities do not see that giving advice is part of their role. It's a bit like the police - you are expected to know the law, and breaking it - ignorance of it is no defence.
I'm not being unsympathetic, just a realist, and I would say I have a great deal of experience and expertise in all this but clearly that would only draw further stupidity.
I too feel depressed about so much regarding our built heritage, and after today I think that bulldozing the lot is possibly the best idea really.
I don't intend to bother posting here much now either, it's not worth the time I give it.
Moreteyne
Member
- Messages
- 77
- Location
- Cambridgeshire
Well , I see it carry's on even whilst I sleep.
Tubledown May I first of all say don't lose heart , keep the faith. It's all to easy to accept defeat in issues like this. I agree it seems a little harsh ( unless you have a history of the is sort of thing ) to take this action against you. It is a shame your CO was unable to give you any guidance.
I'm sure will look back on this in years to come and have a little chuckle.... ( hope so anyway )
As for Evelyn, well what can I say.....
I received numerous mails yesterday ( you know who you are ) giving me an insight to her so called "ways."
I have been using this site now for two years, I have sought advice , given advice, and even taken Evelyn up on some of her well meant guidance.
I am sick and tired of her type of rudeness being given as an offshoot for her intellectual knowledge. No person is bigger than the whole community, we all have a place on here , that's what makes it what it is. When somebody feels that their voice is more than the whole , then they need bringing down.
What started off yesterday as a bit of a jibe, even with mocking undertones became nothing more than a swarm of insults on me. I was accused of numerous inaccuracies on my academic worth and personal achievements, was I meant to lie down and just go "oh well , that's Evelyn"
Shame on this community for allowing her to continue to bully and mock those people who come on here for guidance.
This is my last posting on this issue , I will leave you with a little saying that has stayed with me for a number of years.
"It is the fool who believes he knows everything, and the wiseman who realises he knows nothing."
Ever & Anon
Tubledown May I first of all say don't lose heart , keep the faith. It's all to easy to accept defeat in issues like this. I agree it seems a little harsh ( unless you have a history of the is sort of thing ) to take this action against you. It is a shame your CO was unable to give you any guidance.
I'm sure will look back on this in years to come and have a little chuckle.... ( hope so anyway )
As for Evelyn, well what can I say.....
I received numerous mails yesterday ( you know who you are ) giving me an insight to her so called "ways."
I have been using this site now for two years, I have sought advice , given advice, and even taken Evelyn up on some of her well meant guidance.
I am sick and tired of her type of rudeness being given as an offshoot for her intellectual knowledge. No person is bigger than the whole community, we all have a place on here , that's what makes it what it is. When somebody feels that their voice is more than the whole , then they need bringing down.
What started off yesterday as a bit of a jibe, even with mocking undertones became nothing more than a swarm of insults on me. I was accused of numerous inaccuracies on my academic worth and personal achievements, was I meant to lie down and just go "oh well , that's Evelyn"
Shame on this community for allowing her to continue to bully and mock those people who come on here for guidance.
This is my last posting on this issue , I will leave you with a little saying that has stayed with me for a number of years.
"It is the fool who believes he knows everything, and the wiseman who realises he knows nothing."
Ever & Anon
Tumbledown, Approx. 20 Years ago I found myself in a very similar situation you are experiencing, I agree with you it is not a laughing matter.
I had a big passion for old buidings and limited knowledge about conservation. I had a chippy/builder friend helping me on the project, also had some plans drawn by a local up and coming architect, he was quite cheap and had three attempts to have the proposed plans and alteration approved regarding building regs and listed repairs. I was not very happy with overall progress of things, started poking around by pulling off a bit here and cutting a bit there on the building and generally hitching to go.
I was very luky, the CO showed up on site, uninvited, and after advising me that I should not touch the building untill all the proposals had been approved as I could be prosecuted for destroying historical fabric.
I must admit, he recognised that I was a bit ( or quite a lot !!!!) "green" on restoration matters, he also suggested that to achieve what I wanted the proposed plans could be altered and end up with more usefull space and it would be more appropriate for the building.
He hinted I should have engaged an architect which understood what the building required, also that since it was a self build/restoration I should join the SPAB in order to gain more understanding about these types of buildings.
I was so determined to get it right, joined the SPAB, met a well known architect, had all the plans redrawn ( I think he took pity on me), read every book that I could find about old buildings and when the restoration was finished we ( myself and the architect) won the price for best restored cottage in Essex that year.
I still use the same architect ( retired now) and up to this date he still uses the slides from the cottage for his lecturers.
Hard work, determination, guidance, and understanding are prime requisite for a succesfull restoration, ( apart from money of course).
This advise applies equally to CO's
Don't get disheartened, You will get there in the end ( that is a promise ! ), just grit your teeth and make the best of the situation under the circumstances
Good luck.
Ps:
I have never had a problem with any CO from that date.
I had a big passion for old buidings and limited knowledge about conservation. I had a chippy/builder friend helping me on the project, also had some plans drawn by a local up and coming architect, he was quite cheap and had three attempts to have the proposed plans and alteration approved regarding building regs and listed repairs. I was not very happy with overall progress of things, started poking around by pulling off a bit here and cutting a bit there on the building and generally hitching to go.
I was very luky, the CO showed up on site, uninvited, and after advising me that I should not touch the building untill all the proposals had been approved as I could be prosecuted for destroying historical fabric.
I must admit, he recognised that I was a bit ( or quite a lot !!!!) "green" on restoration matters, he also suggested that to achieve what I wanted the proposed plans could be altered and end up with more usefull space and it would be more appropriate for the building.
He hinted I should have engaged an architect which understood what the building required, also that since it was a self build/restoration I should join the SPAB in order to gain more understanding about these types of buildings.
I was so determined to get it right, joined the SPAB, met a well known architect, had all the plans redrawn ( I think he took pity on me), read every book that I could find about old buildings and when the restoration was finished we ( myself and the architect) won the price for best restored cottage in Essex that year.
I still use the same architect ( retired now) and up to this date he still uses the slides from the cottage for his lecturers.
Hard work, determination, guidance, and understanding are prime requisite for a succesfull restoration, ( apart from money of course).
This advise applies equally to CO's
Don't get disheartened, You will get there in the end ( that is a promise ! ), just grit your teeth and make the best of the situation under the circumstances
Good luck.
Ps:
I have never had a problem with any CO from that date.
worms
Member
- Messages
- 1,992
- Location
- ultima Thule
Tumbledown,
Before you go into a formal complaints procedure as suggested by Evelyn, I wonder if it might be worth getting your local councillor to come round for a chat to see if the whole situation can be resolved amicably. Ask him/her to act as an independent broker between you and the CO. If Council staff need heads knocking together then the Councillor is in a good position to do this and carries some weight in the system. If the Councillor sees no merit in your case, then this should give you a warning that you are in a situation where you are unlikely to win.
And try to keep your cool! You want the Councillor on your side so don't approach him/her with all guns blazing!
Before you go into a formal complaints procedure as suggested by Evelyn, I wonder if it might be worth getting your local councillor to come round for a chat to see if the whole situation can be resolved amicably. Ask him/her to act as an independent broker between you and the CO. If Council staff need heads knocking together then the Councillor is in a good position to do this and carries some weight in the system. If the Councillor sees no merit in your case, then this should give you a warning that you are in a situation where you are unlikely to win.
And try to keep your cool! You want the Councillor on your side so don't approach him/her with all guns blazing!
Agreed, "statuary" and " guide line" don't go well together,
" statuary", is the commitment the government makes to the serve and please the public within a time limit.
" guideline" is the get out clause to cover their a***s when thing go wrong.
They are not stupid you know.
" statuary", is the commitment the government makes to the serve and please the public within a time limit.
" guideline" is the get out clause to cover their a***s when thing go wrong.
They are not stupid you know.
Nemesis
Member
- Messages
- 9,402
- Location
- Planet Earth
Moretyne - you really have little idea at all about me. I neither mock nor bully, and I think I am the one on the end of your bullying and personal insults. It seems it's OK for you to sling it around, but not to take it.
Nor am I intentionally rude - it's just, as NT has said, in another thread, maybe people don't always get what they want to hear.
I rather think I know who the e-mails were from too - there are some sad people around. Yes, you know who you are.
I also suggest that you calmy re-read what I have said, without putting into it your own strange interpretations, and possibly you may realise what I was saying wasn't mocking or bullying. There is a serious situation here which could end up with a stop order being placed on any further work being carried out, and even enforcement action.
I have never suggested I know everything, but I know a great deal about conservation. I do try to share that with people, but frankly at times it's just not worth the effort. Like now.
Nor am I intentionally rude - it's just, as NT has said, in another thread, maybe people don't always get what they want to hear.
I rather think I know who the e-mails were from too - there are some sad people around. Yes, you know who you are.
I also suggest that you calmy re-read what I have said, without putting into it your own strange interpretations, and possibly you may realise what I was saying wasn't mocking or bullying. There is a serious situation here which could end up with a stop order being placed on any further work being carried out, and even enforcement action.
I have never suggested I know everything, but I know a great deal about conservation. I do try to share that with people, but frankly at times it's just not worth the effort. Like now.
tumbledown
Member
- Messages
- 95
- Location
- Suffolk
There is a chap that used to be a conservation officer in the area (until he was pushed out in 2004 for being to polite). He is now working as a consultant. I had dealings with him earlier in the year as the council brought him back on a short contract when they were short staffed. What a difference! A really nice guy, helpful, pragmatic - he even smiled and said stuff like "hello, goodbye, please and thank you".
Anyway, I'm thinking of asking him to represent me. It's money I can ill afford, but may be the best course of action.
Anyway, I'm thinking of asking him to represent me. It's money I can ill afford, but may be the best course of action.
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
Not an "approved" list, but a list of contractors we know have done similar work in the past - it's still up to you to make enquiries and satisfy yourself that they know what they're doing, but yes, there are lists available which should at least weed out the obvious cowboys.Manny said:
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
Are you calling me fat? In any case, chocolate cake is the other guaranteed way to get round me.Nemesis said:
Nemesis
Member
- Messages
- 9,402
- Location
- Planet Earth
I wouldn't dare Gareth, clearly that would be mocking and bullying and I'm far too wise for that, as apparently I know nothing.
Moreteyne
Member
- Messages
- 77
- Location
- Cambridgeshire
Are you still going on , I thought we called it a day , grow up woman
Nemesis
Member
- Messages
- 9,402
- Location
- Planet Earth
I said it on the other thread.
I'll say it again.
In simple language so you can understand it.
EFF OFF YOU BLITHERING MISOGYNIST.
And before you run complaining to admin, read the board wide policies and consider the first carefully.
I do not repeat DO NOT have to put up with flaming and bullying from people like you. If you choose to misread what I say and misrepresent the way and the spirit in which it is said, then seek some help. It's not my fault. If you have built up in your mind some picture of me which is clearly disturbing you - then again, seek help. I'm not at all the person you seem to think I am, but hey, why spoil your preconceived ideas with a bit of reality, eh?
There's someone here who has got in rather a sorry pickle with the local authority. I'm not now going to give any advice or make any further comment because clearly anything I say will be misread and misrepresented by you. Sad for the person concerned, but there it is.
So go on - you do it. Clearly you have the answers. All of them.
Answer the posts. Do it without any links to wider advice too, as that seems also to have you foaming at the mouth.
And I bet you can't resist another pitiful sexist jibe.
I don't give a bugger if your dad is bigger than mine, and ya boo sucks to you with knobs on. Nananana.
That's about your level I think?
I'll say it again.
In simple language so you can understand it.
EFF OFF YOU BLITHERING MISOGYNIST.
And before you run complaining to admin, read the board wide policies and consider the first carefully.
I do not repeat DO NOT have to put up with flaming and bullying from people like you. If you choose to misread what I say and misrepresent the way and the spirit in which it is said, then seek some help. It's not my fault. If you have built up in your mind some picture of me which is clearly disturbing you - then again, seek help. I'm not at all the person you seem to think I am, but hey, why spoil your preconceived ideas with a bit of reality, eh?
There's someone here who has got in rather a sorry pickle with the local authority. I'm not now going to give any advice or make any further comment because clearly anything I say will be misread and misrepresented by you. Sad for the person concerned, but there it is.
So go on - you do it. Clearly you have the answers. All of them.
Answer the posts. Do it without any links to wider advice too, as that seems also to have you foaming at the mouth.
And I bet you can't resist another pitiful sexist jibe.
I don't give a bugger if your dad is bigger than mine, and ya boo sucks to you with knobs on. Nananana.
That's about your level I think?
Moreteyne
Member
- Messages
- 77
- Location
- Cambridgeshire
Don't think I need to say anything , you seem to have covered all angles as always.
Moreteyne
Member
- Messages
- 77
- Location
- Cambridgeshire
Only if I can be mother
Nemesis
Member
- Messages
- 9,402
- Location
- Planet Earth
It's no wonder is it that so many with REAL expertise have stopped posting here?
Thanks those who have PM'd and e-mailed.
This fruit loop has no idea what he has done.
But hijacking a thread, where someone needs some serious help and advice, in order to clearly get his rocks off, is a sign of a very, very sad person.
So come on - give all that advice, smart arse. We are waiting. Breath held.
Thanks those who have PM'd and e-mailed.
This fruit loop has no idea what he has done.
But hijacking a thread, where someone needs some serious help and advice, in order to clearly get his rocks off, is a sign of a very, very sad person.
So come on - give all that advice, smart arse. We are waiting. Breath held.
- Status