Conservation Officers, bless 'em

[tumbledown]

I've just had a rather unpleasant meeting with the conservation officer. The timber-framer working on my house arranged to meet her on site to discuss some of the work he is doing. It's the first visit since work commenced. I don't think I've ever been spoken to like that in my own house before, she was so rude and off hand. There were a few minor things I've done without running them past her (just removal of some modern materials). Also, we are having new stairs. They were included on the listed buildings consent application. However, consent was granted with one condition - that more detailed drawings of the stairs were sent in. Well, I took it to mean don't start work on the stairs until more details were supplied. She says I shouldn't have started at all, that I'm in breach of the order, that she is going to inform the inforcement officer, and that appropriate action will be taken against me! All she had to say was "well, you shouldn't have started but no harm done, get the stairs details in as soon as you can".

The timber framer and myself were so disapointed when she left (she had been having a go at him too). So far, I've removed tons of concrete, cement, gypsum plaster, breezeblocks etc - I've employed an experienced man to repair the frame properly, a brickie who is only going to use lime - have a breathable floor of rammed chalk and hand made pamments planned, and have no intention of putting any inappropriate modern materials back. I felt like all my good intentions were flug back in my face as she nit-picked her way through the application. You would think she would be pleased that she had an owner who wanted to do things properly and would have given a little advice and encouragement. Unfortunately, it seems I am dealing with bloody-minded jobsworth.

Okay, rant over - got that off my chest.

Was that okay biff?

 

[Moreteyne]

Hi
Sorry to hear your rant.
I had a similar issue with our BCO the other week, it makes you feel like all the work you have done and are doing means nothing.
May I suggest you contact Gervase, all case studies needed.

Chin up.
Moreteyne

 

[middi]

Tumbledown, sorry to hear that you are having a difference of opinion with the CO as to how you should approach the restoration of your house.

I have a sneaky feeling that apart from the staircase the CO may have detected quite a bit of " steaming ahead" without proper consultation for her to threat enforcement action.

One of the first lessons to be learned when embarking on a listed building restoration is to get the CO on board and consult about every stage of the restoration.

I am sure you have honorable intentions about the restoration, unfortunately these intentions have not came across clear to the CO.

As to the staircase, this is one of the internal structures in a listed building where a lot of historical significance and importance apply, and it is usually a sticky subject in any listed building and CO's demand drawings of alteration for approval and for proper records to be maintained.

After all if you have permission to alter the staicase subject to brawings, someone could install a spiral aluminium one where is totally inappropriate and then can hardly expect the CO to approve it, meantime history has been burned.( not that you would !!)

In your position I would apologise to the CO to try to remedy the situation, and assure her that she will be called to inspect all stages of restoration to meet with with her approval.

Yes, it is crawling a bit .

 

[Nemesis]

Well - although you mean to do the right things by the building, I'm afraid I have a fair bit of sympathy with the CO - and this isn't the same at all as the sort of case studies Gervase is looking at, where he is seeking examples of BCO's insisting on modern and inappropriate materials being demanded on traditional (and usually unlisted) buildings.

I have a suspicion I may know who the CO is, and if I'm right she is very good - wish there were more like her in fact, keen and willing to put the buildings first. And that's her job really - to ensure buildings of national importance are treated properly, within the law, government guidance, etc etc. In her position she has no option but to inform the Enforcement Officer - you will probably get a letter, but as long as you comply and get the drawings in and approved within the appropriate timescale and before doing anything else then that should solve that one. If it all went wrong and she hadn't complied with the correct procedures then there could be problems with enforcing any further action against an owner.

I'm afraid she is right - no work at all should have taken place without full final approval. Even modern materials might, in the overall scheme of things, have some historic significance. She can't now say as they are gone! You say you have removed tons - that's a great deal of listed fabric. No wonder she's a bit shirty.

So I agree with Middi - don't do anything else at all without approval. Especially get all details of the staircase submitted and approved. At the moment it seems that what you have is conditional consent, and that is conditional on everything being finally agreed and approved.

It may be also that she would have liked some recording of any removal of fabric, including timber, before it vanishes forever.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, I am not being unsympathetic, but CO's do have a job to do, and sounds really like she is doing it.

 

[Me!]

Tumbledown, I have a lot of sympathy. Is it Mid-Suffolk DC you are in? I don't know the new CO there, but a previous one was an absolute nightmare!

 

[Moreteyne]

Tumbledown

Don't be put off by the comments made in here. Whilst they mean well obviously they misunderstood the reason for your rant. You are within your rights to feel as though the work you have undertaken has not been acknowledged. Whilst our learned colleagues in this forum are factually correct as usual, the way in which you have been dealt with seems to me to be extremely rude and unprofessional. There seems to be too much stipulating of rules and regulations to the detriment of fluid manners. It is a shame that people have lost touch with humanity and the art of conversation , and instead think that being rude and brash is a form of " being good at their job "
Don't lose the faith , keep going.....

 

[Nemesis]

Well - the work shouldn't actually have been started yet...

I haven't misunderstood, and I don't mean well - EVER - that's a very patronising comment in my view... I'm telling it like it is.

The CO may well have been horrified you know, at what has been done!

That may have coloured her attitude! And made her a bit forthright.

The rules and regs are there, and they are actually there to protect the buildings.

 

[Sarab]

I'm possibly not as learned as my fellow posters but...

Having restored several Grade 2 listed properties and now living in a Grade 1 listed property, I only have a few words of advice for you when it comes to dealing with either English Heritage, Listed Buildings Officer or CO, in no particular order.

1. Bite your tongue if they seem harsh with you.
2. ASK their advice, that's what they are there for.
3. Do not ever "tell" them what you are going to do, rather, solicit their advice. They love to feel "involved" and respected for their knowledge.
4. I have developed the knack over time of getting my idea across in such a way as they think it's their idea.
5. They don't have all the answers.
6. You don't have all the answers.
7. It's a learning curve for all concerned as every property is different.
8. Know your stuff and also know when you are not going to give in when you know you are right about something, but make sure you really are right.
9. Never lose your cool or be rude to them, just walk away when you want to bonk them over the head!

Good luck, I'm sure everything will be fine long term.

 

[middi]

Ahh......There, there,there.

Nobody has been rude or harsh with Tumbledown Moreteyne, and it is accepted that Tumbledown is probably doing a brilliant job within the parameters of his own understanding and interpretation of how you go about restoration, Obviously that is not what the CO thinks according to his post.

All that has been pointed out is where and how he may have lost the plot, and found himself in a pickle with the CO.

I would take it as constructive criticism, after all I should think we have all made c**k ups on old building along the way where a CO or a more experienced restorer has pointed us in the right direction.

I think Tumbledown should use this experience as a learning curve.

 

[biffvernon]

Well - the work shouldn't actually have been started yet...

In theory. But I have come across cases where a building's history and future has been best served by a conspiracy between owner and tradesperson without troubling the good folk at the Council Office. I have also known cases where the opinions of a Conservation Officer have been inconsistant, changing over time, wrong and just daft. Things are not always black and white; a multicoloured world is prettier.

 

[Nemesis]

Maybe - but I also have some real horror stories...

 

[rog and gina]

we have had similar experiences with CO'S, we are now on our sixth CO!(not our fault, they are very short staffed and seem to be struggling to keep any CO for longer than a year!)
They have all had different idea's, it's just a shame they don't all go through the same training.
The last one is a qualified architect, and knew NOTHING about timber framed buildings, she did everything from a book,
eg:
Q. what treatment will you be using on the oak?
ans. none, the oak looks after itself!

Q.what colour will the un-tinted limewash finish be?
ans. the same colour as all other untinted limewash finishes.

Q.How long will it take to finish the project?
ans. as long as it takes!! :?

Everytime we submitted the application she would come back with another set of questions(to cover her back apparently!) it took us over a year to finally submit the plans officially, including two visits from a structural engineer that she insisted we use that cost us over £400.

Since the consent was granted they haven't even acknowledged us, we only found out she over a year ago because we phoned for some advice!

Sorry, I don't think all CO's are in the right job!

 

[Nemesis]

But be fair - I wonder how much and what sort of training and experience you expect CO's to have?

You were fortunate thet your local authority actually employs one. And an architect may well have brought an appropriate set of skills to other aspects of the job.

I doubt that the questions were all to cover her back - maybe they were to ensure you had thought through all aspects of what you are doing. Not sure why she would require her back covered. She would, though, need to ensure an owner had some idea before they started work. Not all have, you know! Too late to find out once the building is ruined.

Some people may have wanted to 'treat' the oak, so I'm not so sure that was so daft really.

And the structural engineers report too - we had to have one of those when we had work done on an unlisted property I recall, in order to get what we were doing past BC. That was to ensure the place wouldn't fall down.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

The original poster should deal with the problem by moving to Norfolk. We're all lovely COs up here, we just like to roll over and have our tummies tickled once in a while.

 

[Nemesis]

Gareth Hughes - that's the best laugh I've had all day!!



(Well - I've just had a large parcel of papers from DCMS delivered and I needed one.... grrrr....)

 

[rog and gina]

apparently she'd had a bad experience with her first few appointments, she'd done an initial inspection, they'd started ripping everything out and then went on holiday! When they returned they found "a pile of sticks!" (everything had fallen down!)

by the time she'd come to us we had owned the house for six-ish years, and any work that had been done was praised by the previous CO's one even stated in their huge file " it is nice to see two people dedicated to doing any work with patience and a real love for this cottage, all work completed has been done to an excellent standard!"

I can understand that they have to be careful, but some things were really over the top. The issue with the engineer was over three pieces of wood approx 18 inches long, she wanted it in writing that they couldn't possibly be kept, and rather than taking responsibility herself she wanted us to pay him so he could put it in writing and take the blame if anything was questioned.
On the last few visits she was accompanied by a "coleague" not long after she was gone.

 

[Nemesis]

Maybe she got fed up ... many do. Don't blame them.


Sorry but I think that she possibly went through the correct procedures in asking for the report.

 

[rog and gina]

For the first report yes, definately, but for three small pieces of wood, that had no top joint's or bottom joint's due to decay, possibly not.


Anyway it doesn't matter any more, its done and paid for, we are looking forward to having the rest of our house soon!

 

[Nemesis]

Thing is - it's not the role of the CO to make the decisions regarding the safety of anything - so I have no doubt at all (architects do have to be fairly bright, don't they Gareth??) she did know, but it had to be backed by a report by the appropriate person on your behalf.

 

[biffvernon]

The original poster should deal with the problem by moving to Norfolk. We're all lovely COs up here, we just like to roll over and have our tummies tickled once in a while.

Right, I'll get a low loader, Middi and Penners, we'll need a bit of spare muscle. Moretyne, that cherry picker of yours. Gareth and Moo, If you can sort out a vacant plot in Nar'ich...

It'll be fun to imagine the CO's face on her next visit.