circa 1800 cottage, internal wall question

[joechip]

Hi Ian, whats a Mortar Mill? It says on that webpage that the mortar will need knocking up with a mortar mill but that sounds like it makes it rather complicated. I was hoping it was something I could do without additional machinary. Or is that just if one was mixing vast amounts of it.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Ian Bond]

I just use a shovel and a mixing board, and do it all by hand. Keeps me fit (to drop)!

And I just use a stick to mix my limewash instead of a powerdrill attachment.

A mortar mill would be very useful if you were rendering & pointing all day, every day for a living, without the benefit of cheap labour to help.

 

[joechip]

Hi All, i've not posted for a while but have been checking in to have a read and thought I would provide an update on my litle project. I've not made as much progress on my cottage as I would have liked but working alone coupled with the cold winter and trying to come to terms with the loss of my father at the end of the summer, I guess there is only so much one can do. Looking forward to slightly warmer weather though so I can get going again.

I have decided to start looking for a tradesman to help me with pointing and plugging as at this rate I will never be done. If anyone knows of an lime plaster specialist in Herefordshire please let me know. I have found one company based in Hereford called 'The Lime Plastering Company' so I guess unless someone can provide a personal recommendation i'll start there.

I do have a few questions at this stage so if anyone is willing to comment I would be very grateful. I have posted pictures below which hopefully will help.

The first pictures below are of a boxed in rsj type beam. My father used oak I think and recently we have noticed it's being eaten by something. I'm not sure if it's woodworm or some other insect but where we have had the tv below while we are renervating there is always fresh wood dust so we know what ever it is it's active. 3 pictures below of this. Can I get something to treat this with? I've not noticed them active anywhere as and i'm quite sure all other signs of them are very old. Perhaps they like this 'newer' wood?

A couple of pictures of a wall before and after taking down the rotten plaster and earth render. The bottom metre was gone and I think the heavy wallpaper was keeping in a lot of damp as the wall appears to be dry now it's all off. The stairs on the oposite side of the wall show at the top and there is a peice of rough board or something up there so i'm not sure what to do. I may leave that for a professional to look at. Maybe it can be taken off and plugged or maybe just be plugged behind and then plastered over. This wall had two nice cracks running all the way up the wall with loose render either side. When exposed there were two area's of heavy cement repairs behind both of these cracks that fell outwards so I guess this has not helped the upper wall at all. you can see part of the underneath of the stairs in the last picture.

I have uncovered the beams above the windows and am hoping the plaster can be tapered in to keep the beams exposed. Any advice on how to clean them up? They are oak and were covered in render and seem very dry but not brittle in anyway. My father did some cement pointing around them and i'll get some of that out pretty soon.

On one chimney wall the render was just falling off the wall once I started but above the fireplace it's very hard and stuck. Do I just use some sharper cheap chisels and plug away until it's gone? I presume I dont want to leave it and have a join between lime plaster and gypsum if thats what it is.

I'm not planning to put the partition wall back that was mentioned in my ealier posts until the walls are plugged and pointed where the partition will meet them. I can't believe how much work is involved and to be honest i'm struggling a bit so I would be grateful for any advice. Thanks.

Regards,
Garry

 

[Lime]

I'm looking at the pictures with some horror.
You appear to have removed lime plaster that looks perfectly ok with a little repair.

 

[Nemesis]

It does look like something has been munching its way through the wood, although it is rather early - are you sure this is active, or is the frass from the wood simply loose and falling out? One way of telling is to tape a piece of paper over and leave it - if holes appear you know that there is still active infestation.

I have no doubt someone like Matt Greeen or PC will be able to tell you more about a suitable product to use on that if it is still active - don't go mad and fill the building with chemicals if they are not needed.

I would certainly chip away at the rest of that gypsum. No use keeping it and trying to feather it in. Get rid of as much gypsum as poss but try to keep sound lime - it can be patched.

The oak lintel - try dry scrubbing before you do anything else, get as much muck off as poss. Fresh plaster is bound to splash on to it, so no use going too mad.

I see Ty Mawr is holding a fresh series of lime courses - starting this week. Good place, good products. May be able to point you in the direction of people to help also.

Try to keep as much as possible of what's original though - stripping out too much is a great temptation but it's not good conservation.

It looks a charming place and it will be well worth taking time and doing it properly.

 

[joechip]

I'm looking at the pictures with some horror.
You appear to have removed lime plaster that looks perfectly ok with a little repair.

It's a mixture of gypsum repairs done in 1989 when we moved in and very old render and very loose plaster. Some of the walls had soft points and cracks with almost just dust under the plaster. I really don't think the walls I took down could be saved. The only bit I have come accross that is firmly fixed to the wall is above the fireplace. What was above it just fell away. :|

 

[joechip]

I would certainly chip away at the rest of that gypsum. No use keeping it and trying to feather it in. Get rid of as much gypsum as poss but try to keep sound lime - it can be patched.

The oak lintel - try dry scrubbing before you do anything else, get as much muck off as poss. Fresh plaster is bound to splash on to it, so no use going too mad.

I see Ty Mawr is holding a fresh series of lime courses - starting this week. Good place, good products. May be able to point you in the direction of people to help also.

Ok thanks Nemesis. I'm not sure there is any sound lime or in fact any lime at all but i'll leave it now till I get someone to take a look.

 

[Penners]

Joe

Don't get downhearted. You sound a bit depressed (understandably, in view of your sad loss), and it will perhaps help you to know that we all go through low periods, when we feel that the whole project is just too much for us. I'm sure everyone on the forum would agree with me.

But then, just when it all seems endless, you have a couple of good weeks. Things come together, and you're able to step back and see another stage successfully completed. And that really cheers you up.

Just remember the old adage: "Eat the elephant a spoonful at a time"!

Your wood infestation certainly looks quite fresh from the photographs. It's difficult to get the scale of the boreholes in the photos, but I have a feeling they're a bit too big to be woodworm. However, there are specialists in this area on this forum - hopefully one of them will respond and give you a bit of advice.

 

[Ian Bond]

Joe
Just remember the old adage: "Eat the elephant a spoonful at a time"!

Never heard that one before, but you are spot on Penners.

My project frequently over faces me with work, and setting deadlines for completion of jobs just piles on the pressure, so don't do it.

I've almost 'finished' one room. That's a room where we can keep stuff relatively clean and dust free, and it gives an impression of what the rest of the house could look like eventually. A great boost to morale.

Sometimes I like to pick a small task that I know I can do well, and concentrate on that. It makes a welcome break from some of the other seemingly endless jobs, and restores my self confidence somewhat.

Ian

 

[Penners]

That's a good policy, Joe, and one that I often practice.

If a huge task is just getting too long and tedious, I leave it for a few days and do a quick, satisfying job. Then I come back to the big job with renewed interest.

 

[arthurw3]

mmm, am I missing something here? You have taken the surface off a wall which seems to be an external wall and hence is subject to building regs. The wall will need insulating to current standards which will involve a minimum of 100mm of closed cell insulation. You also need building regs permission for the job.

 

[Ian Bond]

If I had to add 4 inches of insulation to the inside of my walls, that would cause rather a lot of problems with the window and door reveals, skirting boards, cornice, etc etc.

Surely this comes under repair, and with a historic building the regs can be consigned to their proper place.

In the bin.

 

[Ian Bond]

Garry / joechip

Ignore those comments about having to add insulation to those external walls.

There's nothing I can see in Part L1B of the regs that mandates that, over ruling all other considerations, particularly with respect to historic buildings.

I would be interested to see if arthurw3 can back that claim up with a specific reference to the document and page.

 

[Nemesis]

Looks like a repair to me, and one which will be to the benefit of the building and its breathability, not its detriment.

Also - where in any regs does it state that insulation has to be 'closed cell'?

It is important to remember that the contents of the Approved Documents are only guidance - it is not cast in stone and there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Extract from City of Westminster guidance on building regs.

 

[joechip]

Just remember the old adage: "Eat the elephant a spoonful at a time"!

Thanks Penners, Ian and Nemesis for your advice. I think maybe I am near the break point where things can only look better instead of worse and perhaps as it gets a bit warmer and the days longer I may feel a bit more positive and productive. Hopefully I can attend the April lime course at Ty Mawr which may stop me feeling so helpless!

 

[arthurw3]

Garry / joechip

Ignore those comments about having to add insulation to those external walls.

There's nothing I can see in Part L1B of the regs that mandates that, over ruling all other considerations, particularly with respect to historic buildings.

I would be interested to see if arthurw3 can back that claim up with a specific reference to the document and page.

Mmm why can't I get the quote in a white box???
Page 22 and 23 L1B. If you can talk your way out of that with a BCO you are better persons than me. I wasn't referring to historic buildings specifically

 

[Ian Bond]

Continue to ignore arthurw3, joechip. Don't allow his ill informed comments to worry you unnecessarily.

This is the Period Property forum, and we are discussing historic buildings, certainly in this case.

55 If such an upgrade is not technically or functionally feasible or would not
achieve a simple payback of no greater than 15 years or less,
the element should be upgraded to the best standard that is technically and
functionally feasible and which can be achieved within a simple payback
of no greater than 15 years. Guidance on this approach is given in Appendix A.

I can think of no better approach to your wall than re-rendering with a haired lime plaster. I am sure that this was your intention anyway. Of course, you should continue to do your utmost to conserve as much of your historic plaster as possible - it is irreplaceable. You will save yourself a great deal of time and money.

Now let's have a look at Table A1 (Renewal of internal finish to external wall) on page 29. You will note the Comments on Reasonableness, Practicability, and Cost Effectiveness

Assess the impact on internal floor area. In general it would be reasonable to accept a reduction of no more than 5% of the area of a room. However the use of the room and the space requirements for movement and arrangements of fixtures, fittings and furniture should be assessed.

Fixtures such as windows and doors, perhaps, which would need to be altered to accomodate a deeper internal finish? Very expensive, and would ruin the appearance of your room. That would certainly fail the tests of reasonableness, Practicability, and Cost Effectiveness.

Not that you need to bother with this nonesense, as you are simply repairing an historic building with the correct materials, which will allow the structure to breathe.

 

[joechip]

Hi Ian, no I was not worrying and i'm lost as to what adding 10cm to my already 1'5 thick walls would do for me apart from giving me even smaller rooms.

And yes i'm planning on going down the haired lime plaster route.

Thanks again.

 

[joechip]

Hi again,

I'm having new windows put in within a few weeks and am wondering how I am going to get the tv ariel cable into the house as at present it goes through the window frame. The carpenter who has made my windows says he does not like to drill the frames and will bring the cables in around the frames. This sounds fine but then what if they need renewing at some stage. I'm wondering what others would do, and was thinking a thin piece of hollow 'something' just enough to thread a coax through could be put above the frame somewhere or has anyone got any advice on how it 'should' be done?

I want to bring the cable in upstairs and then route it down through the floor internally instead of having a cable down the outside of the house as this way not much of it would show outside as the top windows are just under the roof overhang anyway.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Flyfisher]

It's difficult to give specific advice because so much depends on the layout and construction of a house when considering cable routing, as well as the state of decoration of course.

For the rooms I've been recently working on I've been able to lay in new TV cables and I've brought them all into the attic for connection into an aerial amplifier/splitter. An amplifier/splitter is not always necessary but if it is it's always best to locate it as close to the aerial as possible.

The external aerial cable runs a few metres down the chimney and then through the gable wall to the amplifier/splitter, thus minimising the amount of cable visible externally as well as reducing its exposure to the elements. I just drilled a small hole through the gable wall, enough to get the cable through. I didn't bother with any form of trunking because the chances of needing to replace the cable in the next decade or two is minimal and even if it does become necessary it will be a simple job to just pull the cable out and redrill the hole ready for the replacement.