circa 1800 cottage, internal wall question

[Nemesis]

From what I can see in the picture, the upright post (stained a dark colour) looks to have been produced by traditional hand sawing methods, as the marks are so irregular.

Don't know what others think, but it looks to be quite an old piece of timber, which should be retained. Indeed, so do those rather characterful studs, but yes, agreed, they were never intended to be on show, but covered with lath and plaster (as above the door).

 

[Cloudscape]

I get the feeling, judging by the nail holes (and sometimes the marks left by the laths), that nearly all my timber framing was covered up at some point. I get a sense that however meaty the timbers are (and beautiful to us now), in a lot of houses the timbers were just functional.

 

[Penners]

the pictures show the beams to be better than they really are.

If these slender studs are not of particularly good quality, I certainly wouldn't be considering taking them out and then using them to build a cart lodge. They don't look as though they be up to that job.

I would leave them where they are, as the basis of your reconstructed wall.

As Ian Bond has suggested, I wonder whether the channel in the concrete has been left where a sole plate has rotted away. If so, your best plan would be to try and insert a new sole plate. You obviously can't do this in one piece, but you might be able to slide it in section by section (each section no wider than the gaps between the studs), with half-lap joints joining up the sections. Best make the sole plate out of oak and put a piece of dpc underneath it.

 

[joechip]

Thanks again for your comments.

The studs are pegged into the top left to right 4x4 beam you can see just below the ceiling. They are also fixed via one of those lethal looking curled nails up into the beam. There was no fixing point at the base, they were either resting on brittle concrete just above the earth or resting on fallen disintergrated render and mice nests and a couple were just hanging.

 

[Penners]

In which case it does sound as though your trench is the remnants of a rotted-away sole plate. This means that the studs are, in effect, hanging in mid-air, rather than resting on a firm foundation. Not good!

As I said above, I would set about inserting a new sole plate piece-by-piece underneath the studs before you do anything else. If you want a diagram of my suggested way of doing this, let me know.

 

[joechip]

Hi again, I was just about to take some photo's of the channel in the concrete but can't find my cf memory card. I may have left it at my mothers in London in the computers card reader, doh!

As it stands now there is a 6 inch wide, 4 inch deep channel in the concrete floor where the studs were removed. I've chipped the channel out straight and removed all the debris and loose earth. There is now a clean channel the whole lengh where the partition wall was.

I guess before I lay any wood for the studs to rest on i'd need to add a thin layer of level concrete and then on top of that the dpc?

If you could do me a diagram to show the order of things that would be very useful thanks.

Thanks again.

 

[Penners]

Ah - I didn't realise that you've taken the studs out. That being the case, your new sole plate can be installed in one piece.

Yes, given that there's concrete on both sides, there's not much point in being too precious about what you use under the sole plate. So I would dig the trench deep enough to give you at least 4 inches thickness of concrete, provided you're digging into undisturbed soil. If the soil looks disturbed, I should go down another couple of inches. If you want to be belt-and-braces about it, and you happen to have a few steel rods lying around, you could chuck these in the bottom of the trench before you pour your concrete, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if you don't.

Once your concrete has hardened, lay a dpc over it (I would use a membrane wide enough to line the bottom and both sides of the trench, in a U-shape) and then install your new sole plate.

If you're going to re-use your old studs, and the bottoms of any of them are a bit rotten, you could make your new plate a bit higher than the old (missing) one - high enough to allow you to cut off the rotten stud bottoms.

I hope that helps.

 

[joechip]

Thats very helpful indeed, thanks again.

 

[joechip]

How unlucky is this. I found out today that only 18 miles away from me is a place called 'Calch Ty-Mawr Lime' described as 'The Welsh Centre for Traditional and Ecological Building'. As well as being what seems a major retailer of traditional building products they also provide 1 day courses on using lime, lime plastering etc. The introuction to using lime was 'yesterday' and the one at the beginning of November I can't get back for. This is followed by a 1 day lime plastering course, also which I can't get back for. I've been here for nearly 2 months and go back to London tomorrow for work and I find this website today. :roll:

http://www.lime.org.uk

Oh well, at least I know there is somewhere local I can get my products from.

 

[joechip]

I've not looked into it in any great detail yet as the frame is not up but judging by the prices displayed at the below website for clayboard it's going to be an expensive project just to put the partition wall up. It would not mean I can't use it but I guess it shows why plasterboard is so much more financially attractive.

http://www.oldhousestore.co.uk/acatalog/Plaster_Backgrounds.html

I've had a better look at the studs after dusting them off and giving them a coat of woodworm and damp protector. The colors and character of the wood is quite fantastic in places. I really don't want to shut them back into the partition wall but find a way of using some of them in the cottage. I'm wondering if I could use two of the straighter ones (a nice straight line down one side) to build a door frame for an oak internal door in the partition wall, or i'm going to store them and use them when/if I ever manage to have that two storey extention done.

I'll take some more photo's when i'm back at the end of the week as it would be great to get some opinions on a couple of items.

 

[Ian Bond]

Reed board is cheaper than clayboard.

Clayboard is much cheaper than buying the laths and plaster for the backing coats.

Both methods become more affordable if DIYing, and not having the labour cost of paying someone to do the work for you.

Plasterboard is an acceptable alternative to it all if you are on a tight budget. It would be my last choice though. You can get a lime skim to stick to PB with the right preparation. Obviously you will have lost the excellent breathability of the traditional construction, but this may not vital for an internal wall in an upper storey.

With your existing damp problems (with a concrete floor forcing moisture into the base of the partition and rotting the sole plate) you will need to carefully consider the best approach. Penners gave some excellent advice on this earlier in the thread.

Beware of trying to use those rough (but excellent) studs to create a faux 'cottagy' effect. It will not look right, and it is a shame to discard the original fabric of that wall if it can be reused in situ.

There are some excellent articles in the Information section of PPUK that are a good starting point.

 

[Ian Bond]

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/article024.htm

 

[Ian Bond]

I wonder what (was/is) under the concrete floor? Beaten earth, tiles, stone, slate, bricks?

It sounds as though someone either removed, or just covered the original floor with concrete, burying the sole plate of the partition wall. With nowhere else to get out, moisture from the ground would be forced to the perimeter of the floor, rotting the sole plate and perhaps damaging the lower part of the wall itself.

Maybe then someone's removed the lath and plaster from one side of the wall, exposting the studs, and clad the other side in PB?

Whoever concreted the floor has (unintentionally) set in progress a series of events leading to the (temporary?) loss of the internal wall.

Just a guess, but I'm sure many of us dealing with problems in our old houses would have similar tales.

I'm not suggesting you dig the concrete floor up (tempted?) to find out what's below. The mess and the cost of repairing it all would not be attractive. You've got the basis of a good plan to repair the wall outlined above. How you finish it is your choice: bead board, lime plaster plasterboard...

 

[joechip]

Hi Ian,

On reflection the idea of using the studs to create a door frame was stupid. My brain just goes into overdrive sometimes with everything to do. I've seen some really nice oak internal doors available by various companies, the price does seem to vary though but one of these in a nice oak frame will do the trick.

The concrete floor, in fact the whole cottage appears to be sitting on a bed of stone and the bare earth. I dug out a 2 foot square flower bed (for a climber) that was up against the front of the cottage a couple of years ago as it dawned on me this was a source of moisture coming into the walls. I dug down about a foot and could see the base of the building sitting on flat stone, under that was just undisturbed earth.

I have started to follow the advice from Penners re the gap in the floor where the partition wall was. I did have a good look under there and it is just broken flags and undisturbed earth to. I cleaned out a good channel so the cement has a good base to lay on and hopefully it will be ok.

One thing that has been on my mind, can lime plaster be skimmed over gypsum plaster? Lets say if the room has a mixture of coniditons of walls, some will be done from scratch, ie they have been taken back to the stone, others have the bottom meter taken off, others are ok. Can all the work to be redone be done in lime and any that are going to remain be reskimmed in lime, thus giving a finished room with lime plaster all around? I do hope that makes sense.

I will read that article. I have started to explore the site more over the last few days. It's a great resource.

 

[Ian Bond]

You can get lime skim to stick to gypsum, but of course this is decorative only. The breathabilty of the wall will be reduced with this method.

Scroll down the list of products for DG27:

http://www.mikewye.co.uk/mikeprices.htm#limeplaster

or for Decofond here:

http://www.womersleys.co.uk/acatalog/Building_Products_2_6.html

Or you could patch the walls with lime plaster, then decorate appropriately to cover the lot. For example lining paper then emulsion, or one of the 'eco' paints that will cover the various surfaces:

See the PPUK shop:
http://www.periodpropertyshop.co.uk/acatalog/Interior_Paints.html

I'm going to extremes in my house, and removing 99% of the gypsum, replacing it with lime plaster and limewashing it. But that is taking it to extremes and most (sensible) people would compromise!

The downside of my approach is the terrible mess it makes, and the time and effort to put it all right. Although I am not under pressure of time to finish the house by a given deadline, it is an ongoing process. Again, not everyone will want to, or be able to do this.

 

[joechip]

You can get lime skim to stick to gypsum, but of course this is decorative only. The breathabilty of the wall will be reduced with this method.

I was hoping to use limewash paints this time around and was hoping if I skim over any walls that are staying I can use limewash all round.

Or you could patch the walls with lime plaster, then decorate appropriately to cover the lot. For example lining paper then emulsion, or one of the 'eco' paints that will cover the various surfaces:.

Again, I was hoping to get away from papers and emulsion, at least for the time being and see how it looks. I expect if we are not going to line the walls I would need the plaster to be very good all round.

I'm going to extremes in my house, and removing 99% of the gypsum, replacing it with lime plaster and limewashing it. But that is taking it to extremes and most (sensible) people would compromise!

The downside of my approach is the terrible mess it makes, and the time and effort to put it all right. Although I am not under pressure of time to finish the house by a given deadline, it is an ongoing process. Again, not everyone will want to, or be able to do this.

Yes, we are having to compromise due to time constraints and presure to complete the project within a reasonable timeframe, ie finished by summer. Because I have to keep coming back to London for work (12 hour shifts) I only get my off shift days to work on the place.

As for the mess! We just stripped the back wall to the small room which was partitioned off by the wall I took down to find all the plaster/render has gone completly (I was hoping it was just the 1st meter) so this is another one that will have to come off. :roll: This wall appears to be very old brown plaster and almost earth render.

The trouble I have is in this room the ceiling appears to be very old, I can see lathes and plaster up there and it droops and sags along the edges if I take down the supporting materials and since the (lack of) partition wall is at a right angle to this wall that needs to come off i'm wondering how i'm going to support the ceiling! perhaps some 4x4's and a plank? Or should I wait until it's being supported by the new partition wall which means more waiting to get the wall down. :? I'll take some photo's when i'm back at the end of the week after these 3 nightshifts are out the way.

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Ian Bond]

If the partition is original, you *may* find that the ceiling abuts it on each side.

On the otherhand, the Head Plate (top horizontal timber) of the wall could be fixed over the plaster ceiling, if the wall was inserted later. The plaster may well be damaged and loose around where the head plate was fixed, so expect some more mess.

Some internal partitions (not all), even timber stud ones, provide support for floors above. They may even provide support for another wall on the floor directly above, so be *very* careful before removing anything!!!

Sagging ceilings can be propped, and refixed with screws and washers from below, or scrim and plaster from above. Scr*wF*x and others sell telescopic props that can come in handy.

It depends a lot on why the ceiling is sagging. Could be that the ceiling is bowed but still firmly fixed (it was made that way). Or the plaster key may be damaged, or laths loose due to nail failure etc.

Just take it carefully, you do not want a large and heavy section of ceiling coming down on you.

Remove as little as possible of the original fabric, repair what needs repairing whilst avoiding the tempatation to over-restore. Achieving a 'perfect' finish can result in the loss of character and charm of the old building.

There's no problem with setting a deadline for the Summer, just don't tell anyone which year you have in mind!!!

 

[joechip]

There's no problem with setting a deadline for the Summer, just don't tell anyone which year you have in mind!!!

:lol:

I'm quite sure the ceiling is stable as a whole, it has a central beam under it kept up by a large oak prop, the same as is in the photo's of the larger room ajoining it. the sagging is quite localised to the edges where the support is removed. I'll take it easy and look at some props.

Thanks again.

 

[joechip]

Can I ask, I need to do quite a bit of repointing indoors where we have removed old plaster and render which has left some quite big (and small) gaps in the stones which I would feel better about if they were repointed with mortar.

I presume the following will be suitable for this purpose? I'd like to use that site as they are based quite near to me so I can go and pick it up rather than worry about delivery.

http://www.lime.org.uk/products/p2973.asp

Also where the stone is at skirting board level do I repoint this also as there is not much mortar down there at all or is this how it is supposed to be to stop any damp transfer up the wall. I know this is the reason this area is not plastered.

 

[Ian Bond]

The mortar looks OK to me.

There can be a problem if gypsum plasters are taken right down to the floor, on damp ground floors - hence the need for a gap.

I haven't noticed a problem with lime plasters, and have continued them right down to the stone floor. In fact one Victorian text book I have recommends plastering behind the skirting to avoid leaving spaces that may harbour vermin!!!