Penners
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- Thread starter james.struc.eng
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skier-hughes
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I'm in waiting for my pint, but nobody's seen you all day :?
Penners
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WHAT?? When I said the first pint was on me... you believed me?
Poor deluded boy...
Poor deluded boy...
Lime
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The premise being that an expert's opinion is more valuable than an amateur's?
I think that depends on the information available on which to give an opinion and the expertise the respondent possesses doesn't it?
Real and relevant information is often in short supply, that is not the fault of anyone giving the advice.
Rubbish-In-Rubbish-Out doesn't just apply to computers.
However an internet forum, by definition, cannot be informed of all the facts because of it's ethereal nature.
And what's all this nonsense about a maker of windows not having as valid opinion as "an expert"?
Sounds a very opinionated opinion to me.
On what basis is that assertion made?
Personally, I'd rather listen to a person who uses his hands as well as his brains than someone who doesn't.
Real experience is much more valuable than purporting to possess it.
Altogether a strange question put to a discussion forum on the internet.
Why is it asked?
Is it a wish to prevent false and misguided information being given to all and sundry?
No. I don't think it is.
Flyfisher
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I think James has raised some very good points but, in practice, that's really what the web is all about - as was eloquently pointed out by Penners. The web enables open discussion by all-comers and is both its strength and its weakness, but that's not really much different to real-life. Is the builder/plumber/electrician/architect/surveyor who quotes for some work really an expert or a cowboy, or somewhere in between? How can you tell? In practice, surely, you ask lots of questions, gather independent opinions, ask for (and check!) references, even inspect previous examples of their work. You then build up enough information and weigh it against your own experiences and, quite possibly, a 'gut feeling' until you feel comfortable about making a decision.
Also, ljn made the important point that any self-declaration of 'expertise' is not very useful anyway. Indeed, "trust me, I'm an expert" is something that would certainly put me on red alert straightaway - even an expert should be expected to explain themselves in simple language that any reasonably intelligent person ought to be able to understand. In my experience, only people with something to hide will hide behind jargon or condescension. As rightly pointed out, online status comes with sensible contributions and recommendations, much as in real life really.
Having said that, I sincerely hope that James becomes active in the forum as I'm sure the experience of a professional structural engineer would be a most welcome addition, as another point of view of course.
Also, ljn made the important point that any self-declaration of 'expertise' is not very useful anyway. Indeed, "trust me, I'm an expert" is something that would certainly put me on red alert straightaway - even an expert should be expected to explain themselves in simple language that any reasonably intelligent person ought to be able to understand. In my experience, only people with something to hide will hide behind jargon or condescension. As rightly pointed out, online status comes with sensible contributions and recommendations, much as in real life really.
Having said that, I sincerely hope that James becomes active in the forum as I'm sure the experience of a professional structural engineer would be a most welcome addition, as another point of view of course.
Gareth Hughes
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Flyfisher said:
I suspect that being merely "another point of view" isn't going to suit our all-but-anonymous "James"
DaveBrigg
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In 2006, in a moment of panic over a cracked main beam holding up the kitchen ceiling, I tried asking a regular poster on this forum for advice. His reply was
"Hi Dave,
Giving advice about structural condition of timber beams, unseen and over the internet, is probably not very wise
... it does sound as though it would be wise to get someone with a bit of knowledge to look at it. The tricky thing is finding the right person. In this litigeous age it is easier to say "ooh that looks bad, take it out and put a steel joist in there - or demolish the building and build a nice new one", rather than "It'll probably last another couple of centuries".
Someone at SPAB might know a suitable person in your area."
He then contacted a local conservation builder on my behalf. No self-promotion, no risky guesswork, in fact, just the advice that the OP would seem to advocate. The forum is perhaps not as irresponsible as it may superficially appear.
"Hi Dave,
Giving advice about structural condition of timber beams, unseen and over the internet, is probably not very wise
... it does sound as though it would be wise to get someone with a bit of knowledge to look at it. The tricky thing is finding the right person. In this litigeous age it is easier to say "ooh that looks bad, take it out and put a steel joist in there - or demolish the building and build a nice new one", rather than "It'll probably last another couple of centuries".
Someone at SPAB might know a suitable person in your area."
He then contacted a local conservation builder on my behalf. No self-promotion, no risky guesswork, in fact, just the advice that the OP would seem to advocate. The forum is perhaps not as irresponsible as it may superficially appear.
Penners
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Gareth Hughes said:
Yes. The deathly silence may imply disappointment that we haven't all sunk to our knees and begged forgiveness.
Cloudscape
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There's too many pages of 'response' here - some of it perfectly reasonable, and some of it barbed and unnecessary. It makes people sound like they are on the defensive, or possibly even retalliating to james.struc.eng's two posts.
I have no wish to cast any dispersions on james.struc.eng's intergrity or expertise, only maybe to question his approach in his first two posts. Does this sound like a likely description of what's happened here: "someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
I don't mean to imply that this was james.struc.eng's intention. But it has been the effect.
Some members here have been around so long, and posted so many kinds of post, that you really do get a sense of who they are. James.struc.eng (struct.eng, surely?) has made two posts. He could be 14, a wind-up merchant, a serious industry professional, or a giraffe, for all anyone knows. :shock:
This forum - any privately-run forum - is like someone's front room. Normal rules of etiquette should apply (OK, I'm talking about my perfect universe! :roll: ). Just because a forum operates an open-door policy, and anyone can walk in doesn't (in my book) mean that 'anything goes'. While this forum is a mine of information and advice, a brilliant support machine... it is also a social space, for people who have similar concerns regarding their properties, and a serious interest in old buildings.
No one here has anything to defend or justify - definitely not to yet another complete stranger. Rising to any bait is a bit like feeding an internet troll. And until this stabilizes and some level of calm amiable discussion takes place, the effect is exactly like the aftershocks caused by a troll. (I moderate an online forum, so at least I am an 'expert' in something!
).
I would have said that, given recent events (including a certain disagreement, and remarks made on another forum), the timing of james.struc(t?).eng's appearance is a little awkward.
I'd really like to see two things. 1] The forum getting on with life as normal (as 'normal' as it ever is :wink: ). 2] James.struc.eng spending a bit longer on the forum to enable him to get a sense of who the members are, before blurting and causing a diversion from what brings the majority of us here.
I have no wish to cast any dispersions on james.struc.eng's intergrity or expertise, only maybe to question his approach in his first two posts. Does this sound like a likely description of what's happened here: "someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
I don't mean to imply that this was james.struc.eng's intention. But it has been the effect.
Some members here have been around so long, and posted so many kinds of post, that you really do get a sense of who they are. James.struc.eng (struct.eng, surely?) has made two posts. He could be 14, a wind-up merchant, a serious industry professional, or a giraffe, for all anyone knows. :shock:
This forum - any privately-run forum - is like someone's front room. Normal rules of etiquette should apply (OK, I'm talking about my perfect universe! :roll: ). Just because a forum operates an open-door policy, and anyone can walk in doesn't (in my book) mean that 'anything goes'. While this forum is a mine of information and advice, a brilliant support machine... it is also a social space, for people who have similar concerns regarding their properties, and a serious interest in old buildings.
No one here has anything to defend or justify - definitely not to yet another complete stranger. Rising to any bait is a bit like feeding an internet troll. And until this stabilizes and some level of calm amiable discussion takes place, the effect is exactly like the aftershocks caused by a troll. (I moderate an online forum, so at least I am an 'expert' in something!
).I would have said that, given recent events (including a certain disagreement, and remarks made on another forum), the timing of james.struc(t?).eng's appearance is a little awkward.
I'd really like to see two things. 1] The forum getting on with life as normal (as 'normal' as it ever is :wink: ). 2] James.struc.eng spending a bit longer on the forum to enable him to get a sense of who the members are, before blurting and causing a diversion from what brings the majority of us here.
Penners
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Well said, by someone who's just added eight paragraphs!!Cloudscape said:
:wink:
Cloudscape
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:shock: :lol: Yes, windbaggery, but what the hey.
Gareth Hughes
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Cloudscape said:
And there should be an apostrophe in there somewhere, depending on the number of pedants attending, but what Private Eye's letter page now bills as "Pedantry Corner" has been plagued by discussions of precisely that matter in recent months, even going through a period of being "Pedan'ts Corner" :roll:
Penners
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Nice one!
(How come I didn't get invited?)
(How come I didn't get invited?)
Gareth Hughes
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Cloudscape said:No one here has anything to defend or justify - definitely not to yet another complete stranger. Rising to any bait is a bit like feeding an internet troll. And until this stabilizes and some level of calm amiable discussion takes place, the effect is exactly like the aftershocks caused by a troll. (I moderate an online forum, so at least I am an 'expert' in something!
I would have said that, given recent events (including a certain disagreement, and remarks made on another forum), the timing of james.struc(t?).eng's appearance is a little awkward.
It's unfortunate that that "certain disagreement" led to a regular here being banned from posting for a month because of a complaint from an onlooker who took it into their head to police "manners" on this forum.
Cloudscape
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I didn't know about that. I'm really sorry to hear it.
FamilyWiggs
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Gareth Hughes said:
You mean James' middle and surname is not "Struc" and "Eng"?
I'm truly shocked - fancy a self professed expert pitching up on this forum anonymously and not shamelessly promoting said self. I think Something Should Be Done.
Robin (still White Belt Amateur)
FamilyWiggs
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Gareth Hughes said:
Have spent the day in London angered by the following sign on the Tube:
"Please give this seat up to those who need it more than you do"
Angered, because I can't decide if it has one or two grammatical errors. Advice from all pedants gratefully received...
Lime
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To boldly go where no .....
You're lucky!
In my day it was gt a gd jb and more py pr wk, or words(?) to that affect or effect.
You're lucky!
In my day it was gt a gd jb and more py pr wk, or words(?) to that affect or effect.
Cloudscape
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Only one person can fit into the seat. :?
Oh... how silly of us. It must be James Struc-Eng, of the Hertfordshire Struc-Engs.
Less of the silly pettiness please. We could do with a structural engineer here, even if we don't agree with all of his views. JSE has made some good points (and triggered a 6 page thread) and could be a good additional visitor to the site. Differing viewpoints is a good thing.