Any Real experts here ?

[Nemesis]

Then there's Andrew, CO, who won two of these awards and was heavily involved with another, for repair of historic buildings:

http://cprenorfolk.org.uk/awards/winners_2007.html


No doubt I have missed many others...

 

[Cloudscape]

If this is my lintel we're talking about, even just in passing, I can think of a lot of very good reasons why I would ask for advice and opinions from the people on this forum. I've only just started thinking about the lintel, and haven't really fully examined it. If I had knowledgeable neighbours, I would ask them. Every tradesman I have at the house gets asked for all sorts of opinions. That's what I do. That's what a lot of people do. The more viewpoints you have, the more information you can assimilate until you make a decision how to proceed.

I could call in a surveyor, or a structural engineer, but with the best will in the world, I have found (over the last three decades) that they are not infallible. Old buildings are not very precise things. Many vernacular and rustic buildings are pretty idiosyncratic. My approach has always been to take my time and get a full grip of what a building is doing, what is going wrong and why. I've spent a lot of money on surveys over the years, and every survey I have commissioned has contained errors - sometimes fairly serious errors, or (at least) errors that might have wider implications. When I sold my last house, the surveyor said that the bathroom floor had dropped one inch in a corner. In fact, the floor was dead level. The skirting boards had been fixed skew-whiff to avoid some dodgy pipework. But his appraisal of the situation caused short-term problems for me. He also recommended that, in one place, a gable wall might needs tying to the party wall. I couldn't help noticing that his company specialized in exactly that kind of work... In my current house, the expensive survey contains 'misinterpretations'. I've had the luxury of spending months here looking at the 'problems'. I appreciate that has given me more time to assess and monitor the various 'faults'.

I think this is an excellent forum for advice and support. There are people here who really know their stuff. They may not all have letters after their names. I really value the input of people with hands-on experience. The people here are not accountable, in the way that a paid surveyor or engineer might be accountable, if accountability is an issue. But there's a lot more old/ancient-buildings expertise here than you might at first realize. Many of us are having to deal with quite knotty problems, living in old or very old houses. Sometimes it just helps to share! :|

And the people asking the questions aren't all completely thick. :wink:

 

[Gervase]

Er, not much I can add to that rather eloquent post. Despite the odd conniption on this forum, there is a wealth of knowledge and - perhaps more importantly - experience. I'm sure none of us (even if we do have insurance policies which cost us the best part of a grand a year) would be daft enough to say "this is the only way to do it, and don't call in someone to see the problem in the flesh".
And when it comes to policy, practice or a wry p!ss-take, I'll tip my hat to Evelyn any day. She might not suffer fools gladly, or stand to win first prize in a Nu-Labour "Who Wants to be the Next Ambassador to Wherever" contest, but she certainly knows what she's talking about.
As for structures designed and tested by those with letters after their name, might I just mention Ronan Point?

 

[Nemesis]

or stand to win first prize in a Nu-Labour "Who Wants to be the Next Ambassador to Wherever" contest,

Whatever can you mean? Soul of tact and discretion, me, if you disagree I'll see you outside, Plumber's Mate will no doubt hold our coats :lol:

I do know my Warren trusses from my elbow too. Spent a happy afternoon in the library of Alan Baxter Associates reading up on trusses once. Can and do bore for England on the subject when the need arises.

Ah yes, structural engineers. It may be of course that James is James Sutherland, in which case welcome aboard and thank you for your defence of Span Four as not being pastiche, but maybe again it isn't that James.

I mention in passing The Smithfield Inquiry, where certain highly paid (by the developer) 'structural engineers' declared to anyone who would listen and a planning inspector that the tunnels under the General Market were so unsafe the building would have to be demolished in order to repair.

It all proved to be porcine edibles stuff, the sort with pastry casing. Well, if they are so bad, why is Network Rail still running trains through? And indeed when asked that's what Network Rail said. Not that I am casting aspersions on the profession, you understand, it's just one 'expert' who appeared for the baddies whoops I mean the developers was someone who was very keen to stress his high level qualifications, his TV appearances, his lectureships, etc etc...

 

[Lime]

I mention in passing The Smithfield Inquiry, where certain highly paid (by the developer) 'structural engineers' declared to anyone who would listen and a planning inspector that the tunnels under the General Market were so unsafe the building would have to be demolished in order to repair.

It all proved to be porcine edibles stuff, the sort with pastry casing. Well, if they are so bad, why is Network Rail still running trains through? And indeed when asked that's what Network Rail said. Not that I am casting aspersions on the profession, you understand, it's just one 'expert' who appeared for the baddies whoops I mean the developers was someone who was very keen to stress his high level qualifications, his TV appearances, his lectureships, etc etc...

It strikes me that a large number of posters (and lurkers) come to this forum desperate for some sensible advice having had a bad/expensive/abortive experience with so-called experts.

Then there are those who wish to discover as much as they can about a subject prior to commissioning work.
Cloudscape summed it up quite well I thought.

 

[Nemesis]

16. Experience at Billingsgate and elsewhere shows how dangerous it is to accept at face value the engineering arguments put forward by the promoters of development projects anxious to remove inconvenient bits of heritage.

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/upload/pdf/SmithfieldClosingThursday0108.pdf

It's the same with so much 'professional' advice eg damproofers/surveyors ... at least, some of them...

At least here no-one is being paid, and mostly no-one is touting for business either.

 

[Nemesis]

4.1 In conclusion, it is clear that there is no alternative to the replacement of therailway lids in both the General Market and Annex buildings. I reach thisconclusion in my evidence from several directions. I show that repair andstrengthening concepts are extremely risky for technical reasons and completelyimpractical within the present railway infrastructure upgrading programme andoperating regime.

4.2 Although in many engineering situations, it is possible to demonstrate that adecision to act can be postponed, in this case my evidence is that it cannot. Indeedon engineering grounds alone, it is clear that to postpone the inevitablereplacement of the lids would create a progressively increasing risk of a majorloss of service in the years going forward with an associated risk to public safety,the safety of rail operatives and maintenance contractors. Replacement of the lidsover the running railway lines is a necessity to provide a safe, reliable and lastingsolution to a critical section of London's infrastructure.

4.3 The condition of the railway structures over the running railway lines is worsethan previously reported. Many sections of the railway structures in the tunnelsare clearly unsafe. The nature of the railway structures is such that most of theironwork that is affected is hidden or its condition is obscured by historic attemptsto repair or strengthen original metalwork. The structure that has resulted fromthese historic works is a complex amalgam of different components, mixingwrought iron and mild steel, rivets, bolts and welding, all with unknown andunpredictable consequences.

4.4 There is a narrow window of opportunity to proceed with the works to the railwaylids before the completion of the upgrading of the Thameslink railway line andinstallation of the overhead electrification. The proposed construction programme and design solution will meet the Network Rail requirements.

Experts, eh? Get two in a room...

 

[biffvernon]

Is this a building having an odd conniption?

 

[Lime]

Shush! biffvernon, people are still living in the blocks of flats!
anyway the building is perfect it was the people wot wanted to cook in it that dun it.
Should have always eaten out like the architect did.

 

[Nemesis]

The ref to Billingsgate above:

When the City of London, betrayers of heritage, decided that Horace Jones' 19th century fish market needed to be demolished as it stood in the way of progress and making a heap of cash from building something tall and ugly on the site, SAVE launched a campaign to to prevent this, It was told that the building was unsafe as it had been attacked by the corrosive action of fish juices.

It must be true, it was a em - structural engineer who said so.

Pic:

http://www.richardrogers.co.uk/render.aspx?siteID=1&navIDs=1,4,25,421&showImages=detail&sortBy=&sortDir=&imageID=1214

Details:

http://www.richardrogers.co.uk/render.aspx?siteID=1&navIDs=1,4,25,421

http://www.aboutbritain.com/BillingsgateFishMarket.htm

http://www.landaid.org/Calendar-of-Events/Party-near-the-Park-Old-Billingsgate-Fish-Market-EC3.html

http://www.theheritagetrail.co.uk/Image_Library/product.php/3666/1155/6e23b4d7e30af54da8bd6ab82ac41360

It's saved, and converted to an events venue.

 

[Nemesis]

Ronan Point - the history:

http://www.open2.net/modernity/3_13.htm

 

[Juju]

I find the advice on here invaluable - I weigh up all the opinions etc and use them along with my collection of books (a few more acquired for Christmas including Marianne Suhr's one - it was read/pictures looked at by all my visitors over Christmas too!) I then tackle some jobs myself or am armed with information for discussing with carpenters/builders, etc. As we've discussed on here before, some builders etc seem put off when householders (especially women!) talk knowledgeably about lime, breathable houses, etc and run a mile but others are encouraged and seem to enjoy the discussions and then usually do the quote, the work, and happily come back for further work.

I don't have any real expertise myself but have found occasionally I can offer advice to other posters just based on doing various jobs myself or using particular products or suffering similar dilemmas to others and saying what we did to resolve them.

 

[Nemesis]

James has gone very quiet - was it a drive by shooting?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Gareth - no website, but a CO and architect and mills expert, does contribute hugely to Geograph:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/717

and (as Andrew gets a boost a bit further down thread, and us COs are nothing if not competitive) I should just mention that I was involved in nine of these:

http://cprenorfolk.org.uk/awards/winners_ 2008.html

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Shush! biffvernon, people are still living in the blocks of flats!
anyway the building is perfect it was the people wot wanted to cook in it that dun it.
Should have always eaten out like the architect did.

I'd always understood Ronan Point did that because:
1. The builders didn't follow the instructions and jammed old fag packets in the gaps that resulted from not using the right allen key.
2. Ivy Hodge had a dodgy gas fitter in to hook up her new stove.

 

[Lime]

Reading about the construction of Ronan Point gives me a shudder just to think of it.


The post went hand-in-hand with construction of high rise dwellings desired, formulated and designed by experts, whether they be engineers, architects or politicians, none of whom ever lived in them.

 

[Nemesis]

Gareth dahling - I wasn't trying to diss you, it's just you do so much that it would seem like gilding the lily to mention it all... but yes, there are a few 'experts' here! Well, more than a few really.

But read the link. Ronan Point, as Lime says, was really terrifying stuff. Sadly, high rise has come round again. They so rarely learn...

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Reading about the construction of Ronan Point gives me a shudder just to think of it.


The post went hand-in-hand with construction of high rise dwellings desired, formulated and designed by experts, whether they be engineers, architects or politicians, none of whom ever lived in them.

It's become a knee-jerk reaction to say that sort of thing about pre-fab and high rise, and I'm not a big fan, but the same construction system worked structurally perfectly well everywhere except in the UK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattenbau

And even socially there are places in the UK where it works (and indeed is filled with engineers, architects and politicians - the Barbican for example). The real failure, both structurally and socially, was down to the British tendency to confuse cheapness with value for money, both during construction and in the management of the estates afterwards.

 

[Nemesis]

And an inability, it seems, to have some oversight of the job. A failure too of builders to build as per the design.

In general though, it's sad that we are again turning to high rise to supposedly solve the shortage of 'affordable' housing - it didn't always work well in the past, and I doubt it will work in the future. It's just it's cheap on land.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PTX0EPlEV2U&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2uO-NsqSk

 

[Lime]

Reading about the construction of Ronan Point gives me a shudder just to think of it.


The post went hand-in-hand with construction of high rise dwellings desired, formulated and designed by experts, whether they be engineers, architects or politicians, none of whom ever lived in them.

It's become a knee-jerk reaction to say that sort of thing about pre-fab and high rise, and I'm not a big fan, but the same construction system worked structurally perfectly well everywhere except in the UK:

I don't think it a knee jerk reaction at all.
I've seen how people survive in them.. and I'm talking about when they were first built.. and I would not wish to have to live in one.
Perhaps with much greater care in the selection of tenants a high rise could work.

I remember one high rise lot in particular.
It was in chiswick I think and was relatively middle-class.
They had been constructed in such a way that only alternate floors were connected by the same lift. i.e. even numbered floors connected, odd numbered floors connected.
It was a nightmare to find a flat in them and totally devoid of any neighbourly contact at all. I thought it was really unpleasant and cold as each flat was isolated except when they had to use the lift built like a tiny brown box.
I'm left with the overwhelming impression of concrete and dullness everywhere.
A very unpleasant place to visit.

Of course some people do want to live high up in the sky with no garden.
None of the people I spoke to had much choice where they lived and many "had their names down" for a proper house.

However no one wants to live in a dirty unserviced building that is haunted by lower forms of life as many still have to do.