Ugly woodburner - what is it?

[Feltwell]

Ground source heat pumps sound great but it would seem that unless you've got a large garden (that you're happy to dig up) and you're doing a major renovation / new build and can lift all your floors, their use is very restrcted.

The idea of gently warmed flagstones throughout the entire ground floor of your house, with an almost entirely clear "green" conscience, does sound very appealing though!

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm sure MdB is right about how energy prices will change over time; I certainly can't imagine any option coming down.

My only niggling doubt about such things driving change, though, is the way that we all seem to adapt to ever-increasing fuel costs. We've just discussed how mains gas is the cheapest energy option, but it's a lot more expensive than it was a few years ago. Perhaps it's human nature to focus on the best value rather than the absolute cost.

I once had a saturday job working in a petrol station and clearly remember that a gallon of 4-star was 35p. The most common transaction was for one pound's worth of petrol - just under three gallons. The really big spenders would fill up, but still get plenty of change from a fiver. Last time I filled up it cost me about £70, yet there is still no practical alternative to the convenience of a car.

I wonder how long, or what price, it will take before the convenience of mains gas is really superseded by an alternative option?

 

[lou]

We are not on gas mains so planning on air source pump with underfloor heating for downstairs, maybe refurbishing the VERY old and decrepit rayburn as back up with gas bombola for cooking. The comment about being disappointed with an air source pump is a bit worrying though as our heating engineer said that ours would heat all of downstairs and provide hot water for showers etc. Will need to check this out, it would seem. Thanks for green blog link. Will hassle them too!

My reasons for wanting alternative sources of heating are partly ethical and partly enlightened self interest as I too believe that to rely on fossil fuels over the next 20yrs (hoping I live that long!) is madness, especially as we increasingly rely on the likes of middle eastern countries and god forbid, Russia as our own sources disappear.

 

[Flyfisher]

My reasons for wanting alternative sources of heating are partly ethical and partly enlightened self interest as I too believe that to rely on fossil fuels over the next 20yrs (hoping I live that long!) is madness, especially as we increasingly rely on the likes of middle eastern countries and god forbid, Russia as our own sources disappear.

My sentiments too. Trouble is, while 'alternative' technologies are fine on an individual basis I don't believe they'll scale-up very well for 60 million people. It's one thing to be the first in a street to get a wood burner and save a few pounds on gas or oil by burning cheap logs from the local tree surgeon, but when the entire street, or town, or city, tries to do the same thing there won't be a tree left standing for miles around. Still, at least the UK has loads of coal reserves (sorry Biff :wink: ).

I see the antis are already fighting the just-announced national grid extension that would help the UK develop its renewable energy sources:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7853756.stm
So I'm afraid we're likely to be reliant on Mid-East oil and Russian gas for a long time to come. Meanwhile, a log burner makes a very pleasant addition to any home, but it's not really the answer to our nation's energy issues.

 

[Penners]

My gut feeling is that the "green" alternatives will not get a lot cheaper but oil and gas will get a lot more expensive as the supply dries up and that will be the driving force for people to make the change.

I must say that I agree with Flyfisher. I don't see any energy source getting cheaper - or even remaining modest in cost. As the price of fossil fuels escalate, and as increasing numbers of people start to burn wood, I'm sure that it will get a great deal more expensive.

As regards wood pellet boilers, I've always been a bit sceptical about their "green-ness". There must be a considerable energy input to turn the wood into pellets, mustn't there?

 

[JohnB]

Ground source heat pumps sound great but it would seem that unless you've got a large garden (that you're happy to dig up) and you're doing a major renovation / new build and can lift all your floors, their use is very restrcted.

You need a large garden for the slinky pipes that are put in trenches, but for small spaces you can drill a borehole.

The best answer is to insulate, insulate and then insulate some more, and make the house as airtight as possible. It's much better to minimise the heating needed, whether for resource availability, environmental, or cost reasons. Of course this can be far easier with a modern house. My house was unrendered stone originally, and has had cement render since the late sixties. I don't know if it would have been limewashed in the past. I hope to be able to externally insulate and lime render it, so it won't go back to it's original appearance, but will have a more "period" look.

 

[Flyfisher]

The best answer is to insulate, insulate and then insulate some more, and make the house as airtight as possible.

Funny you should say that. Only this morning, those nice people at Evere$t sent me a kind invitation to replace all my windows with their latest and greatest. I don't know what new technology they are using but it will - and I quote - "Make your home infinitely safer - and warmer", not to mention "Never worry about painting and maintenance again". Magic, perhaps?

More seriously, I do worry about airtight houses. Yes, they will be more energy efficient, but will they be a healthy place to actually live? Seems to me that this is road to active air-conditioning systems with complex heat-exchangers just to get a breath of fresh air.

 

[Feltwell]

Ground source heat pumps sound great but it would seem that unless you've got a large garden (that you're happy to dig up) and you're doing a major renovation / new build and can lift all your floors, their use is very restrcted.

You need a large garden for the slinky pipes that are put in trenches, but for small spaces you can drill a borehole.

The best answer is to insulate, insulate and then insulate some more, and make the house as airtight as possible. It's much better to minimise the heating needed, whether for resource availability, environmental, or cost reasons. Of course this can be far easier with a modern house. My house was unrendered stone originally, and has had cement render since the late sixties. I don't know if it would have been limewashed in the past. I hope to be able to externally insulate and lime render it, so it won't go back to it's original appearance, but will have a more "period" look.

I didn't know you could use boreholes for ground source heat pumps - obvious really now you mention it! I presume much more expensive than the trench method though?

Insulation is great but it's not for all properties, and as you say is much easier to achieve with a modern house, especially a new build. If you've got a place like yours that you can insulate externally without too much compromise then great. Mine for example is a Victorian brick house - I can't do anything to the outside without completely altering the look of the house, it would look awful if rendered. Internally I could do something but then I'd lose nearly all the internal features I bought the house for - original skirting, cornicing etc etc. Air tightness is nigh-on impossible with original open fires and single glazed sash windows.

I think I've done / am doing about all I can for this place, which is:-

- old gas boiler replaced with new condensing type
- insulation put under all the suspended ground floors (leaving sub-floor void well ventilated of course)
- roof insulated when I re-roofed, more to do by under-cladding ceilings though
- sash windows re-done with brush seal draught stripping and secondary glazing
- making sure all the family wear extra layers rather than just turning the heating up!

If anyone can come up with any extras that could be done I'd like to hear them, all ideas gratefully received!

 

[JohnB]

I've got the advantage that most of the period features have gone. The walls are encased in cement ( :twisted: ), there is a beamed ceiling in one room with floorboards above, part of a cast iron fireplace, and I've found two interior doors in a shed. I've been told stories of what was done to the beamed ceiling that suggest it might not survive a visit from any sort of officialdom! So my aim is to futurise (rather than modernise!) it, while considering it's history.

And boreholes are apparently more expensive than slinky pipes for heat pumps!

 

[MdB]

I was told that a bore hole added around £3k to the cost of heat pump install compared to around £400 for the hire of a mini digger. To be honest, if I had to do it again, I think I would be tempted by the idea of a borehole. The mini digger was fun but it was 4 days of very hard work and it made a complete mess of the garden.

 

[Feltwell]

That difference is a lot less than I thought it would be Mdb. Shame that ground source heat seems to only really be effective when used with under-floor heating, else with the size of my gas bill I'd seriously consider it!

 

[MdB]

Underfloor heating and lots of insulation. And I mean lots - not as per the bedroom where I will be spending the night.

 

[Feltwell]

Must be better than a tent held down with bags of cement though!

 

[MdB]

Tent on nice heated floor or bed in unheated, uninsulated room... That is a bit of a tough one...

 

[Feltwell]

Electric heated mattress cover - trust me, they're wonderful, nothing beats getting into a lovely pre-warmed bed! (on the nights were your servant has not used the traditonal brass bed-warmer, of course......)

 

[ilona73]

OMGosh i had one of those electric blanket things when i was but a child.... beings back horrible memories of my dad running in and throwing me out of bed... my bed had set on fire with me in it... i hadnt woke up due to the smoke fumes in my bedroom!!
I do hope they are much safer these days.... they frighten me to death!

 

[DaveBrigg]

You're right about wood pellet prices increasing. They went up by over £20 a tonne within months of our pellet burner being installed. They are also more suited to larger buildings or with a large thermal store, since they have a longer warm up / cool down period than a gas or oil boiler. i.e. they work best when on for a long period, rather than firing up every time the hot water tap is used. Instead of pellets, we are now burning scrap wood which would otherwise go to land fill. It's free, but just at the moment I'm getting weary of going out every 40 minutes to break up more pallets, and of course, when no-one is home, there is no heating. Logs last longer, but as mentioned elsewhere, bulk supplies have run out in this area.

 

[Flyfisher]

Electric heated mattress cover - trust me, they're wonderful, nothing beats getting into a lovely pre-warmed bed!

And a hearty second from me - one of life's luxuries without a doubt!

I can understand ilona73's concerns but I've always found them too hot if switched on all night so I've no real safety worries. Just a couple of hours on a timer to take that chill off the bed before diving in. In fact, it's almost time . . .

 

[Feltwell]

I think they've got a lot better Ilona. When you hear problems now, it tends to be "Great Aunt Doris still using her electric blanket that she bought from Woolworths in 1963".

FF, I agree, ours is on a timer, and Mrs F and I have seperate controls for each side. Switch it on to a low level about 5 minutes before geting into bed, it switches off automatically about an hour later. Nothing beats a pre-warmed bed on a cold night!

How middle-aged do I sound?????? :lol:

 

[skier-hughes]

Pre-warmed, I send Jo to bed first