Training Courses - What do people want?

[Lime]

I think using lime instead of cement should be encouraged no matter what.
There are plenty of jobbing builders who make a dreadful mess using cement smearing it all over the brick and generally making a mess.
Why are we so worried about the use of lime?
Unlike cement, lime can be removed with little damage enabling repointing (or whatever) over and over again.
Houses can be demolished and rebuilt using the same materials.

Surely a much more "green" material?

 

[bournonite]

Gervase - I couldnt agree more - we're trying to achieve just what you suggest with the CITB at the moment. The English Heritage bursary scheme was developed out of involvement with citb (I think) I've spoken with them - there was a lot of involvement at one point with the Ironbridge Institute as well - I was doing a course there earlier in the year just when the scheme was being announced, and met some of those involved - great bunch of very determined people. I think there's light at the end of the tunnel - but I still think there is going to be a problem with the 'qualification' of the teachers as trainers - they are practical, hands-on people in the main, and not academics! No doubt it will eventually be sorted, but it wont be easy.


Lime...

Just looked at a job yesterday - lovely old brickwork dating back to the early 1600's, completely covered in about 3/4 inch of heavy pebbledash, with odd areas of exposed brickwork pointed with cement - which is shattered beyond repair except where there is only lime pointing - at least under the pebbledash the bricks are relatively ok.

Agree your point about lime - keep pushing it!!!


Pete

 

[Nemesis]

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.8417

 

[bournonite]

Oh by the way - I've missed a few posts here - my apologies - it seems that some have decided that I'm teaching these courses - I'm not - my partners are, with myself involved helping, organising, researching, arranging accreditation where possible etc... If those who seek to knock would look deeper, they would discover not only a brief CV of the people seeking to train, but some of the places where our work may be seen and admired.

I do appreciate all the responses though - I'm sure nemesis has spent many vindictive hours researching zillions of sites and places, finding every possible course that might compete with ours, and advertising it for everyone to see on this site - thanks, Nemesis for doing an admirable bit of market research for me, and saving me all those hours surfing the web - much appreciated!

I'm not too sure how to summarise to this point, but Lime has made some great points about well qualified people sometimes being useless, and the other way around - but at the end of the day, anyone doing a good job will be recommended, and those doing a bad job will soon fall from grace. From the amount of work we get, almost all based on recommendation, I would suggest the guys are doing something right.

One ?emotion that has been missed in this debate is a rather intangible one - its somewhat akin to a social responsibility. Some people actually enjoy giving of their time and knowledge in the hope that others can benefit - Jim in particular is one of these people. No-one is going to make a squillion from teaching lime courses at £100 a day for a group of say 2 or 3 people - they lose money more like - because the time we spend doing courses is time we could be working on Lord so and so's place, on a £40,000 restoration job, where a 3 month job returns a profit of £10,000.

No - Jim actually asked me to have a look at this because he wanted to help people, to pass on knowledge that his father imparted to him - knowledge that he feels is slowly dying out - partly based on his frustration at continually turning up at jobs to confront incompetent repairs done by amateurs using gypsum based products, or cement slapped everywhere..

I do hope that the borderline vindictive reaction by some on this forum does not put others off participating - its a super forum, and there are obviously some really great people here with a fantastic sense of humour - I'm having some great laughs too. I'm a big boy, with a broad back - having spent months in the Congo on gold and copper mines, sometimes having to hunker down behind a mullock dump with an AK47 returning fire from terrorists so I dont think barely concealed threats on a forum worry me!

Apologies for the length of this - and again, I hope I dont offend anyone - I dont intend to anyway...

Cheers

Pete

 

[Nemesis]

I have sought ... I've read your site and I have thought.,and thought. Maybe you should stop and consider we aren't all nitwits posting here either. But training is a skill and I'd suggest that someone in your setup needs to acquire some training qualifications. Enthusiasm isn't always enough. Those who can do can't always teach. Maybe the way ahead is to work with others in the historic environment and offer placements for those in receipt of bursaries. See the HELM stuff. Having had chats with people doesn't bring you the right to indicate you are in the thick of it with them, and I would suggest that before name dropping organisations which you may be tangentially involved with you get sorted out what agreements you have with them first.

I'm working on putting in place such an award in a different arena of conservation at the moment. You aren't the only one.

I haven't had to spend long, being quite heavily involved in the conservation 'game' (and no I make not a penny from it) I'm pretty aware of what goes on in the wider world. This thread seemed as good as good a place as any to tuck away the information relating to other courses - can't see a problem with that, surely?

Being unpleasant about me may bring you a few silly private e-mails, but many who post here who know me won't think more of you for doing it, and if you consider I'm being vindictive clearly sunshine you haven't a clue.

Maybe some other people do actually have a sense of social responsibility? Maybe they work at things connected with conservation without reward too?

And as for the rest - yeah, yeah. you aren't alone in having a life.

PS Some of it looks over-restored to me, and I don't like your lining idea at all. But that's personal taste.

PPS 'I enjoy teaching and helping people' - your words! So - you aren't intending to teach then?

PPPs - those in the know talk about 'repair' not restoration. That's a TV series, rather badly named, although full of good people who do a great deal of terrific work without being paid for it.

 

[plumbers mate]

Is there a list of references of work done by the trainers - completed jobs or perhaps even better, jobs in progress so that people can see what they are capable of - I know the old adage "them that can, do and them than can't, teach" but it would perhaps put minds at rest if they could see examples. Also perhaps if the trainers had some sort of teaching qualification eg how to teach people to do things, it would also help.
If they haven't any good work or works in progress to show and no teaching practice behind them, I'd be very dubious.
This sort of thing takes years - it's like these "learn to drive in a week" holidays (do they still run them?) No way could you learn more than the very basics on a short lime-plastering or painting or roofing or anything course - not enough to be able to go away and be let lose on a C15th house for example.
A series of courses run over a couple of years BUT leading to a certified qualification like the old City and Guilds would be a good start. Not a finish - a start.
I used to work in what was the Government's Training Oportunities Scheme and we put people onto training courses - the ordinary plastering course was one of the longest at 12 months, and then you were ready to go to work with an experienced plasterer.
I would want to know a lot more about the training organisation, the training facilities and the trainers' qualifications first.

 

[bournonite]

Nemesis...
Thank you - I think we're beginning to see things in a similar way... I agree with your last post - sure - we'll not agree on everything - it would be a sad world if we did, but I begin to see the real you, behind those words.. Quite a nice person really... you even like steam trains!

Pete

 

[Nemesis]

Too late - I think you completely failed to see the point of very much that Ive posted. Which is worrying. Maybe you should take a little more time and not jump in at the deep end?

You never know who may be reading what you post, and who and what they know.

 

[bournonite]

... and you think THAT's a winning reply! Sounds like mummy spanking a naughty child......

 

[Nemesis]

Pete - I am beyond caring frankly if it's winning or not.

Try being a multi million pound developer who wants to demolish a historic building I'm quite fond of.

Then you'll see wrath.

If you want to do some good - fund a scholarship, a bursary, give someone the chance to get some hands on experience working alongside your plasterer. That way the skills can be passed on, and it will be part of a wider scheme, not stand alone.


And stop over restoring those poor old buildings - gentle repair.

 

[Moo]

Evelyn - as a response to a proffered olive branch I think that's one of the most ungracious set of messages I've seen for a long time.

 

[Nemesis]

Do you know - I don't actually care what you think!

And why should I want an 'olive branch'?

 

[Moo]

Oh, dear.

 

[Nemesis]

Immaterial to me really what people think.

But Mr Ward has gained a great deal of free publicity here, hasn't he? And anyone who maybe wasn't going along with it was to be squashed.

Not a good idea though. Too little too late.

 

[bournonite]

You forget that we work for clients, who use ' conservation architects' who tell us what and how they would like THEIR house to look and feel like. Often they want insulation, warmth - some want to re-wire the place with computer and security cabling behind the studding - so we do it. I know you'd like all these houses to be museums, but in our line of work, you cant. Have a look at the new thread - the pictures I've put up - that house is full of modern plaster, there are even plastic beams!!!! Our brief is to TRY and gently ease some of this stuff out of the way and get it back to original - I have a meeting arranged next week with the local conservation officer to find out the real story about the painting, and what we can, and cant do - I'm sure plastic beams arent part of a grade 2 listing.

Re developers.... shit happens mate - if the planners allow it, there's sod all you can do. How do you think I feel when they pull down one of my beloved old engine houses in Cornwall or Devon - our mining heritage is disappearing rapidly... Now when that bloke comes running up to you with a machine gun in his hands, and you line him up and gently squeeze the trigger - THAT's doing something about it....

 

[Nemesis]

And some of us, in our own way, are doing something about it.

We can squeeze the trigger, metaphorically.

But don't use this site to promote your business. Some will stop posting again who have real expertise.