Training Courses - What do people want?

[middi]

Considering the controversy surrounding the validity for Bournonite,s " advert" being posted on an unappropriate secion on the P/P site, it has managed to spark a lively and interesting debate which is well at home on this discussion forum.

As to the importance and merits of qualifications versus practical skills, it reminds me of the the university Don which was being ferried across the amazon river in a small boat by a local man. The Don engaged this man in conversation and learned that he had never been to school or away from his primitive village or that he knew anything at all about the outside world. The Don replied, " no school, no university, no knowledge and no profession , what a shame my good man, you have wasted half of your life".

Without warning a freak wave capsised the small boat and the professor screamed: " I cannot swim, I cannot swim", to which the ignorant man replied: " Well, it sounds to me that you have wasted all of your life".

 

[Moo]

Oh, come off it, Evelyn.
We're all agreed that there's a national shortage of skills and knowledge of traditional methods.
In the best of all possible worlds someone would wave a magic wand and the country would be awash with skilled craftsmen passing on their knowledge to eager indentured apprentices. Or perhaps a dedicated institute of further education, staffed by skilled craftsmen and qualified conservators, where students would leave after a couple of years equipped practical skills, lots of theory, and certificates to prove it.

Until then we have to make do with what's available, and if someone wants to use the forum for a bit of market research that might lead to another drop in the ocean of craft training, it's not the end of the world. And anyway, surely it's up to Simon to decide where to draw the line?

 

[Nemesis]

It's so easy though to deride those with qualifications as all theory and unable to do anything with such theory. It's not always the case.

We have a desperate shortage of people able to work on historic buildings. We also need to ensure that the building trades in this country aren't monopolised by cowboys without any idea what they are doing. Too many turn up and talk the talk and then ruin your house.

Courses taught by people who are able to teach the theory and the practical skills, hopefully who also have taken the trouble to train to teach (as trainers) and for which the trained can take some nationally recognised qualification, at whatever level, seems to be a move in the right direction.

 

[Nemesis]

A bit of market research? Hardly!

And that's been carried out already at national level.

Sad if the forum simply becomes a place for those who wish to ply their wares, no matter how thinly disguised the ad, as that will I know deter some from posting here.

'I'd love to see posts here from people who have done it - they will judge for themselves..! ' A further good bit of free advertising then!


However, it's other claims which concern me, and for which I received no answers.

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.8417

Do read it Moo - you may learn something about what's happening at national level.

And maybe Sue could look at the bursary scheme?

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.6649

 

[Nemesis]

The ad is one thing - it's the other claims which have raised concerns.

PS there are courses around such as those you describe...

 

[Moo]

"http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.8417

Do read it Moo - you may learn something about what's happening at national level."

Hurrah! The magic wad has been waved at last and we can all relax. Why on earth have we been getting so steamed up about a problem that evidently no longer exists?

 

[Nemesis]

I did post that early on in this thread... no-one is claiming the problem no longer exists, but it is being addressed at national level.

However, anyone attending one of Peter's courses should ask - is this an nationally accredited course? If so, who is accrediting it? And what training skills and qualifications do those delivering the course have?

The answers may or may not be important to you, but be aware of what you are paying your money out for before you attend any course.

 

[Moo]

Sorry, Evelyn - I must be having a more than usually dense morning, but I don't understand what you mean by the 'other claims'.

 

[Nemesis]

As I said at the outset - SPAB isn't an accrediting body... issues of accreditation I haven't had any answers about...

 

[Moo]

Aah.

 

[biffvernon]

Certificates are a modern invention (the last one I got was plastic coated) and have no place in traditional vernacular building. - Discuss

 

[Penners]

So there you have it, listeners. A lively debate here in the studio, with strong feelings being expressed on both sides, but sadly we've run out of time.

If you've been affected by any of the issues in this programme, you can call the PPUK helpline and receive counselling. Your counsellor will be fully qualified in techniques from basic "Ah - there, there" and "Never mind then" up to advanced modern procedures such as "Pull yourself together".
:wink:

 

[Nemesis]

Maybe, maybe not.

But... no-one should make claims which may not be true regarding who is validating courses.

It leaves a bad taste.

Stork isn't butter.

 

[Penners]

Certificates are a modern invention (the last one I got was plastic coated) and have no place in traditional vernacular building. - Discuss

I totally disagree with that statement. The last certificate I got was for swimming 25 yards, and that was a-a-a-ages ago.

 

[Penners]

Stork isn't butter.

But 8 out of 10 housewives couldn't tell the difference.

 

[Nemesis]

Sadly. Or maybe that was just in the adverts... I can certainly tell.

Actually, I think those taste tests were not all they seemed - I think that there was Marmite involved too.

 

[Penners]

Totally off the point, I'll tell you a little (true) story about consumer testing.

A well-known British biscuit company commissioned a well-known British market research organisation to do some consumer testing for a new biscuit in Japan.

The researchers came back and reported a very favourable reaction to the biscuit by Japanese consumers. So the biscuit was launched in Japan. It totally flopped - a few initial sales, and then... nothing.

So the brand manager for the biscuit flew out to Japan to find out why. He approached a director of a Japanese supermarket chain, and asked him whether he could explain the disaster.

"It's obvious," said the Japanese guy. "You used a British market research organisation. If you'd used a Japanese one, they would have told you that no Japanese consumer would be rude enough to tell you that they didn't like your biscuit."

 

[Nemesis]

Quite!

And this may be an appropriate place to post this:

http://www.trp.dundee.ac.uk/research/tbpt/tbpt.html

Super to see what excellent work is being carried out around Britain.

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.8417

And maybe Sue could look at the bursary scheme?

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.6649

OK, I've found it and applied for further information. Will read up more and post back if relevant at a later stage.

Sue

 

[Gervase]

I'm largely with Nemesis on this issue. There are an awful lot of places now doing short courses and introductions to lime, but there is no way of weeding out the good from the bad. As such, they do spread the word, but there's no escaping the fact that they are a handy little earner for the people running them.

And some, I think, are taking the p!ss - like the enterprise not far from me which was charging people £70 a day for 'an introduction to lime plastering on straw and adobe' just to get their their project finished (albeit in a rough and ready fashion) by gullible punters willing to pay for the privilege. I had to admire the brass neck of that particular wheeze, and confess I did think of 'borrowing' it for some repointing work that needs doing on one of our barns! But I digress...

No short course is going to teach anyone proficiency in the use of lime. An already competent plasterer, bricklayer or mason will learn enough to grasp the basics, but even s/he will need months of application in all conditions to master the materials to the point where they can confidently expect other people to hand over money for their skills. OK, you can teach the theory in an afternoon but, as I've often said of plastering, it can take a lifetime to master the practice.

To put a personal perspective on that, some years back I did a short course and became a convert to the world of lime. I started working on my old house and outbuildings, and some of the early work I did was attrocious - of a standard that would be completely unacceptable to anyone. I hacked it back and did it again. And sometimes again.
After three years' working full time pointing and plastering, shifting some 12 tonnes of mortar and plaster, I considered myself competent enough to help out with some other people's houses. And only then, when they declared themselves happy with my work, did I even think about charging strangers for pointing, rendering and plastering. That step seems a very long way away from that first introductory course, but, of course, I've still got the bit of paper I was given to show I'd complete the course!

And, were I to see my mirror image turn up on the doorstep touting for trade, I'd be naturally suspicious. I'd want references and I'd want to see examples of the finished work. Because, in the absence of any certification other than that meaningless bit of paper from the lime course, that's all once can do.

What NVQs and other properly certificated schemes do is provide a simple and easy to check way of showing that a person has done enough 'hands on' work to satisfy a set of simple criteria. I have done NVQs in blacksmithing and decorative ironwork, and they all require you to produce what in the past used to be called a "'prentice piece", demonstrating all the techniques you are supposed to have mastered. The courses may not have a lot of academic input (the 'writing' aspect covered maybe two sides of A4 and was largely concerned with the ever-present 'risk assessment'!) but the craft input is significant and does offer a good test of the candidate's abilities.

What the conservation industry needs is a set of NVQs specifically tailored to traditional materials and techniques. The irony is, most bricklayers doing an NVQ will start their training using lime mortar, because it can be scraped off the bricks and blocks and reused - it's just that once they're past Level 3, they never touch the stuff again.
Such courses should qualify for a career development loan and be endorsed by the CITB.

I do wonder, however, if we need yet another introductory course. I can see the appeal - for the person running the course - given that the average cost is around £120 and the material cost is probably around a tenner. In fact, once the long barn is converted, I may well start running a few courses.... :twisted: