Training Courses - What do people want?

[Nemesis]

Maybe on this site.

But there are wider issues, which have been raised in the appropriate quarters.

 

[Nemesis]

I make not a penny from anything I post here, and do you mean those organisations which are our national conservation bodies?

Bit hard to post about consevation without reference to them really.

 

[Penners]

All sorts of organisations; conservation organisations and commercial companies (paint suppliers spring to mind). But I repeat - I really don't have a problem with it. The only "advertising" I see as being truly unacceptable is outright profit-driven, spurious stuff.

 

[Nemesis]

I think that certain claims were made which I and others consider may be spurious.

This will take a while to sort out and it would not be appropriate to say more at this time.

I don't make money from pointing out that some firms supply goods which may be good for historic buildings. I don't provide a service for which I receive payment which supplies such goods, and I make not a penny from anything I do for the charities of which I am a member.

 

[Nemesis]

PS as for being a regular... date of joining August 14th, posts 14.

 

[BMcD]

Nemesis wrote:

I'd not like an enthusiastic amateur to carry out brain surgery on me either.

Oh, Come on it's easy, I've done a course on it. All you have to do is lop off the top of the skull and scoop out the dodgy looking bits wth a teaspoon. Then if you fit a bungie cord from ear to ear to hold the top of the skull on it alows easy access for future maintanance.

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

In my opinion the more courses that are out there the better, because then more people will be come aware, even the builders perhaps...

In an ideal world I would love to see apprentiships brought back in, but as has been pointed out, not being able to ensure you get a decent period of work out of the trainee when they qualify as a craftsperson has more or less put the kybosh on that one. Employers can't forever be paying out to train people, putting up with their errors etc, if they are going to loose them the moment they become useful.

I am very wary of bringing accreditation into an area where what is really needed is good practical skills. We are currently hamstringing ourselves in this country with pointless exams that prove nothing. The hands on stuff is much more important all round. Its the skill of practicing doing the job, being watched by someone better than you, watching them in turn as they demonstrate and being helped to improve technique that is vital. It is also vital to boost confidence.

In the world of period property repair the majority of people will vehermently argue that modern materials and methods are best. Builders constantly tell home owners that they "don't want to do it like that" (sharp intake of breath). But the builder is the winner when he gets his way, not the home owner, and if they had an inkling that they should insist on lime they will be fobbed off and give up, confidence in tatters. Some paperwork to prove competance would be good, but why not a certificate awarded for skill at doing the actual job?

BMcD suggested that those of us who have done little more than a 1 or 2 day course should not be let loose. But I object to that. I have done a few training courses, between 1 and 3 days apiece. I have found them enormously helpful in getting me going, but no way did I think I could call myself a craftsperson after them. But they boosted my confidence and my initial knowledge so that I dared to have a go. My first repointing on this house I couldn't use the tools at all. I stuffed a lot of it in with my fingers, but practise makes perfect and now I can use the tools pretty well.

Because I believe passionatly that conservation of our built heritage is vitally important I wanted to learn more. So now I have an extensive collection of books on the subject of vernacular buildings, lime, and building maintenance. I've read and understood them and I push the point whenever possible. I do earn some of my living doing repointing and plaster repairs for people. But I don't claim to be an expert. I tell people that I'm self-taught because I had no option for my own home. I make it plain that my plastering will be with quality materials but also that it won't be dead flat as I've not mastered screeding with dots etc., and neither will it be fast.

My point is that to the people I work for around my area of Northamptonshire, there is no option other than a DIYer like me or gypsum, expanding foam and cement. Even with a little training and a lot of personal practise, I'm the better option. I check my work thoroughly and do what it takes to get it right.

So, what sort of course would I like? I'd love to be able to do a 2 year degree course or whatever, but I didn't realise that at the time I left school and now it's too late. If I don't earn money now I can't keep living in my lovely house, so I must work and train around it. I would like a course that ran 1 day a week (say a weekend) for a significant series of weeks, where the day was spent completley hands on, but homework was set for the intervening days so that next week I could practice the theory I'd studied in the evenings. I don't want excessive theory except where it is relevant, ie when to use the different type of limes, how to make a lot of different mixes etc. I would like to be able to do some practical work, and then have it criticised by an expert and then do it again until they felt I'd got it. I have a Mike Wye training video, and its useful, but there is so much more detail I want it to tell me, and of course it can't give me an opinion on my work.

So, a long post as usual with me, but I'm all for more courses, and more variety of type of course. Give us more practical work so that BMcD doesn't feel we are a liability. I don't care if they come from a charity or a business, we all have to make a living.

Long live the remaining period housing stock!

Sue

 

[Nemesis]

I care that those who make claims about course accreditation are factual.

And it matters to many that training for a career is accompanied by some sort of genuine, nationally recognised accreditation really. Otherwise many won't take it up.

I wouldn't employ an electrician without qualifications who had simply attended a two day course, especially when it seems dubious that those running the course in themselves were qualified and who had issued a certificate based on heaven only knows what criteria...

It's a major problem in this country, that the building trades are actually so unregulated, but that's a different issue entirely.

 

[Schoolmarm]

The only "advertising" I see as being truly unacceptable is outright profit-driven, spurious stuff.

I, sadly, think the training man falls into this category.

I was excited at first to see a hands on course but then saw they hadn't been going all that long and it reminded me of a waller who tried to kid everyone he was the best, he got loads of contracts. We then realised he had no qualifications at all, in anything except business things.

 

[Nemesis]

When I wanted a waller, I contacted the DSWA. I assumed I would be recommended someone with some training and nationally recognised qualifications, who the DSWA would be happy to recommend. Someone who had proved some core competencies to someone who knew what they were assessing. NVQ's possibly?

He did a super job I have to say.

I suppose I could put an ad in the papers tomorrow and run courses for wallers, claiming that the DSWA accredited them? I've done a bit myself, I've a computer which can print off certificates... I presume the DSWA won't mind, as I'm spreading the word about walling being a good thing?

Of course certificates in themselves don't mean a person is brilliant at what they do, but it's a help when employing someone, now that old style apprenticeships are long gone. But those certificates have to be maeningful.

 

[BMcD]

Sue Wilkinson wrote:

Its the skill of practicing doing the job, being watched by someone better than you, watching them in turn as they demonstrate and being helped to improve technique that is vital. It is also vital to boost confidence

This is what apprenticeships are all about and they take 3years including 1day per week at college, not a 3day course.

So, what sort of course would I like? - I would like a course that ran 1 day a week

There are plenty of day release courses around most colleges do them.

Some paperwork to prove competance would be good, but why not a certificate awarded for skill at doing the actual job?

Qualifications gained at college used to be City and Guilds but I believe this is now NVQ
When I was at college all the tutors were craftsmen trained to at least C+G Advanced Craftmanship and all approved by the City and Guilds people as instructors. As far as I can tell most of these 3day courses are run by people who "can do a bit" and they then try and sell you products/merchandise. You'd be better off hirering a tradesman for a couple of days, get some 1 on 1 training and get your job done to boot.

I make it plain that my plastering will be with quality materials but also that it won't be dead flat as I've not mastered screeding with dots etc.,

Any one can use quality materials. Crickey you can get quality ingredients for dinner but if you can't cook then it might as well be pigswill.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I feel very strongly about this. These courses are run by profiteers who are only interested in your money. They've realised that they can make more money by getting a dozen people to pay £120.00 per day than they can by working. If I had no morals then this is a perfect way to make money. If anyone complains that they didn't learn anything then you just tell them that it's because they're useless and not cut out for it, as for the rest, tell them their work's "terrific you should be proud of yourself" and give them a laminated cetificate.

 

[Lime]

We live in an age where we don't have to be very good, we just need to have a certificate.
Paper qualifications do not prove to me someone is accomplished in a practical skill, watching them apply their skill does.
Unfortunately not very many people are able to discern craftmanship from flannel.

 

[BMcD]

Lime wrote:

Paper qualifications do not prove to me someone is accomplished in a practical skill, watching them apply their skill does.

This is indeed true but a recognised qualification based on assesed work and final exam pieces goes some way to weeding out those who can't do the job.
That dosen't mean however that all those without certificates are incompetent but it's a bit late to find out when they're half way through the job.

 

[Sue Wilkinson]

There are plenty of day release courses around most colleges do them.

Not around here they don't, at least not in conservation work. I could get training as a modern builder easily enough.

You'd be better off hirering a tradesman for a couple of days, get some 1 on 1 training and get your job done to boot.

Assuming you can find one willing to come to you and do that.

Any one can use quality materials. Crickey you can get quality ingredients for dinner but if you can't cook then it might as well be pigswill.

Well thank you kind sir! That puts me in my place doesn't it? But what I actually said was that around here I'm better than the alternative, pigswill or not.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I feel very strongly about this. These courses are run by profiteers who are only interested in your money. They've realised that they can make more money by getting a dozen people to pay £120.00 per day than they can by working.

Yes, you do sound harsh. Frankly I'd rather pay my £120 per day to someone so that I can learn enough to awaken interest and learn further in my own time. That way I can save my house from the ravages of the modern builders that I've encountered. I have paid an experienced builder to do work on my house and been left in tears at the damage they did. That has happened twice in fact. These people said all the right things and came with references (of course from people who knew no better), in one case even convinced an experienced surveyor. After the second one I determined that was it. No more hacking about by so called builders, I'll learn to do it myself. I have, and now there is almost nothing I wouldn't tackle given the money for materials and equipment. But I do understand my limitations by the way. I would not accept paid work for other people that I haven't already done successfully before.

Please don't knock people for trying, or people who are runing a business. Why on earth would anyone run courses and not make money unless they were a charity? Maybe the day rate is good for a 1 day training course, but that's all it is. How many courses do these people usually run a year? Usually only a few. They have to do something else for the rest of it. I still stand by my view that what I do is better for the houses than the alternative. And I still stand by the view that bits of paper mean nothing. I'm not interested in whether my builder knows how to recite the lime cycle. I want to know that he can make a proper lime plaster and apply it correctly so that it doesn't craze and fall off within a couple of weeks. NVQ's won't do that.

Before I go I'll give you a parallel example. A few years ago the company I worked for needed to recuit a new member of staff. They decided to take on a graduate because they had a lot of experienced expensive people and needed someone a little more basic to train. They called in a number of new graduates with degrees in Computer Science. They all had the degree, but out of about 8, only 1 had actually bothered to do any real coding. For the rest they managed to get the degree on theory and course work alone and they all lacked any kind of interest in the subject. They were useless and unemployable.

So what is better? The right piece of paper or the abilty to do a reasonable job?

Sue

 

[Lime]

Lime wrote:

Paper qualifications do not prove to me someone is accomplished in a practical skill, watching them apply their skill does.

This is indeed true but a recognised qualification based on assesed work and final exam pieces goes some way to weeding out those who can't do the job.

I don't wholly agree, it weeds out those who can't pass the exam.
The problem is that far too many people consider building work only suitable for those who don't succeed in anything else at school.
The attitude may be summed up in "we can't keep him/her in school so send them to the local technical college to build brick walls".
Doing the job is an entirely different matter. There are many people with no qualifications who are excellent craftsmen. There are plenty with qualifications who are bad.
As you say

That dosen't mean however that all those without certificates are incompetent but it's a bit late to find out when they're half way through the job.

but neither does a qualification assure against failure.
A good craftsman is able to show his work to be good.
It is a failure of our own education that so many of us are not able to tell the difference.
The loss of the apprentice in skilled manual work lost us all old untold skills learnt from plain old experience gained in the past.
Colleges cannot replace that. They don't have it.

 

[Nemesis]

The skills shortage in traditional craft skills isn't going to be addressed by people who fancy themselves as teachers running a course lasting a couple of days, is it? One which isn't actually accredited by anyone except themselves. Who knows how good/bad it will be?

Plenty of short introductory courses around, despite claims to the contrary in the first post. They are aimed mostly at those who want to work on their own houses, or who simply want to learn more about the process of using lime. The SPAB in conjunction with the National Trust does run courses for experienced plasterers who wish to learn how to use lime. Those people will already have a fair degree of skill, and maybe it's not perfect but it's a start. The idea is that there are some out there who are capable of working on historic buildings, using the appropriate materials, if given some help to change. Places such as the Scottish Lime Centre do run more detailed training courses, as far as I am aware. And where required SQA certificates are issued.

http://www.scotlime.org/index.asp

Sure there are probably people out there who are excellent craftspeople who are self-taught, who learned at their father's knee, etc - but since the ending of old-style craft apprenticeships leaving the continuance of traditional craft skills to this sort of ad-hoc unstructured future isn't helping the shortage. English Heritage was charged by the government to try to stem this shortage - without skilled joiners, roofers, thatchers, pargetters, etc our traditional buildings are not going to survive for long, are they? And nationally recognised certificates may or may not bring competence, but at least they show that some sort of training has been given and that a certain standard has been reached. Thye also show that an instructor has reached a certain level, and has some idea of the skills required in assessment. In most walks of life people are expected to have had some training and it's normal that such training is given some accreditation by an appropriate body if a certain standard is reached. That has nothing at all to do with two day 'fun' courses however...

I can't actually see the difference either here between the bloke who advertised his tarpaulins on this site and who was roundly condemned for it, and what's going on here. Bit of crafty marketing, an ad for the courses. Nothing to do with the worthy bodies mentioned as far as I can tell. However, pertinent questions haven't been answered.

 

[Lime]

Perhaps my post did not make it clear, I value training and if there is an accredited qualification at the end of it all the better.
What I think is a mistake is the trust placed in a paper qualification.
It does not guarantee good workmanship.
It is the work a person does with which they should be judged.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh I agree! But usually some core competencies have to be demonstrated and assessed by someone skilled in the job and assessment before pieces of paper are issued. Here' one of the courses from the Scottish Lime Centre:


Course Details
Date: 23 Aug 2006 - 24 Aug 2006
Time: 09:30 - 16:30
Trainers: Roz Artis-Young, Douglas Johnstone, Michael Geddes
Venue: Charlestown Workshops.
Cost: £200.00 + VAT (per person)


C1 Making and Using Lime Mortars for Contractors
Through a programme of classroom and practical activities, this 2 day workshop aims to provide a sound understanding of the correct mix proportions and mixing techniques to use lime mortars successfully. By the end of this course you will understand the ‘do’s and don’ts’ of working with lime mortars and gain a strong appreciation of the varied types of pointing finishes. This workshop will enable you to complete lime pointing to satisfy the needs of your clients. The content of this workshop provides the underpinning knowledge required for assessment and accreditation of National Unit 1 – ‘Preparing and using basic lime mixes’.

Day 1 – Making Lime Mortars
Brief historic use of lime mortars, Health and Safety, lime burning, understanding traditional building technology, the range of lime binders, sands and aggregates for lime mortars. Also, accurate mixing for repeatability and cost effective work and understanding the setting characteristics of lime mortars.

Day 2 – Using Lime Mortars
Health and Safety, techniques of working, inspecting masonry, using the right tools, preparation of masonry joints, placing of mortar for ashlar and rubble repointing, joint finishing for effective weatherproofing of masonry walls. Also, curing and protection regimes for successful lime pointing.


Course Details
Date: 25 Aug 2006 - 25 Aug 2006
Trainers:
Venue: Charlestown Workshops
Cost: £50.00 + VAT (per person)


National Unit 1 - Assessment and Accreditation preparing and using lime mortars

National Unit 1 is an assessment of your competence in distinguishing between lime and sand types, mixing a variety of lime mortars, raking out and re-pointing joints in traditional natural stone masonry.

Outcomes include the ability to
1 Mix basic lime mortars
2 Knock-up pre-mixed lime mortars
3 Re-point joints in traditional rubble masonry


SQA certificates will be issued to candidates who successfully meet the criteria of these units.

If we wish to ensure that we have skilled tradespeople then I think it only right that those people can take training and take nationally recognised qualifications, accredited by some genuine nationally recognised accrediting body. I do consider also that it should be possible for people to attend college to acquire skills if they wish, and expand and extend their education. We need intelligent, educated people to work on historic buildings, to undertand their history and construction and correct and appropriate approaches to repair. These people need CPD.

I'd like some answers from Peter Ward but he didn't give them. Far easier for him possibly to recognise that I may be asking awkward questions and so go on the attack and then refuse to answer anything I raise.

 

[Moo]

Wow! Those courses sound great.

That's just what you need, Sue; only £250 for three days and some really useful proper certificates, and then you can stop being all apologetic about being a self-taught amateur.

 

[Nemesis]

Don't you feel that there should be genuine training courses available for people, taught and assessed by those with appropriate qualifications, with national qualifications issued?


I repost what I posted earlier...

Training
Craft Skills

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Traditional Building Craft Skills
There is a shortage of practitioners skilled in the traditional crafts necessary to conserve and restore our historic buildings. These include bricklayers, carpenters, flint workers, lime-plasterers (including pargetters), stone-masons and thatchers. English Heritage has joined forces with CITB-Construction Skills (Sector Skills Council for Construction) to form the National Heritage Training Group (NHTG). The NHTG is responsible for implementing a coherent strategy for training and skills provision in the traditional building crafts sector.
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Heritage Lottery Fund: Traditional Building Craft Skills Bursary Scheme for England and Wales
The Heritage Lottery Fund is providing funding to a partnership of English Heritage, The National Trust, Cadw, CITB-ConstructionSkills and the National Heritage Training Group to establish and deliver £1 million Traditional Building Skills Bursary Scheme.
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Maybe those whith a genuine desire to train as craftspeople should look at the bursary scheme.