Training Courses - What do people want?

[bournonite]

Hi all

I am researching the need for training courses in various aspects of Lime work within the restoration game. We already run short courses which are targeted at the Practical use of Lime - whether repairing lath and plaster, wattle and daub, lime washing or moulded lime such as stucco and internal cornice repairs. We have been involved in some of the commercially offered courses and work with the Ironbridge Institute, having done many of their superb courses. However, we are trying to ascertain the need for a much more practical, hands-on version, where people are able to learn, and keep learning, until they are happy that they posess the skills needed to work on their property. We're quite happy to put together a mobile course, and take it to wherever a group of people might need it.

I realise there is a commercial element to this - but have not seen anything on the Website which refers to courses, training etc., which perhaps people might like to see? A search of available courses tends to reveal a scattering of availability, mainly in the south.

Any useful feedback on the issue of course content would be appreciated. What would people like to learn to do? How long should the course be? When is the best time - week, or weekend? What sort of cost is acceptable?

We are working with CITB and SPAB on the issues of accreditation for such courses but it is quite evident that the more accredited they become, the less time you have for practical learning, and the more expensive the course becomes. We really would like to be able to help people gain PRACTICAL knowledge in the use of lime products and work with one of the most respected suppliers of lime products to achieve this.

A brief look at our courses page might give you more ideas:

http://www.heritage-house.org/limecourses.html

Over to you with apologies if this is seen as overtly commercial..

Peter

 

[Nemesis]

SPAB already runs mobile lime course, in connection with the National Trust ... and indeed other places do also.

Yes it does seem overtly commercial to me actually...


http://www.spab.org.uk

 

[bournonite]

OK, so with the greatest of respect, if SPAB charges for a course its not commercial, if we charge to cover costs, it is??? We've been involved in teaching in one way or another for years, and believe me, there's little or no money in it - we do this for the fun of seeing people becoming a bit more enlightened.. Useful suggestions always welcome!

Pete

 

[Nemesis]

Set up a charitable trust (which is what SPAB is... ) and run the courses on a not for profit basis?

And maybe check with the owners of this site first before posting what really could be construed as an ad?

 

[bournonite]

Nemesis

1) Are you employed by SPAB - do they pay you a commission?
2) Do you own this site?
3) Do you also own Planet Earth - you seem to think you have carte blanche to police it on behalf of yourself? Other people out there might JUST have teensy, weensy different ideas about things to you.

I put this post online in a genuine effort to make a difference - I believe we have the experience, attitude and knowledge to help a lot of people who otherwise might not be able to achieve what they would like to. I enjoy teaching and helping people, and unlike you, dont spend my life criticising others. From the flood of private replies I have received so far, I think you might just find other people think this way too.

Rest assured I shall not bother answering any more of your posts... perhaps you should crack a nice bottle of wine and mellow a bit before attempting to criticise again - you might be surprised at how nicely people treat you!

With my apologies to the moderators - I will not be making comments like this on a forum again, but I do feel someone needs to give a gentle 'ahem' once in a while!

Peter

 

[Nemesis]

I am, like many others, a member of the SPAB. My money along with that of other members pays to keep it going as the oldest conservation body in Britain, one of our national amenity societies.

The site has owners - have you contacted them before posting your ad? For that's what it is isn't it?

If people have other ideas they are free to post them.

I too spend a great deal of my life helping others... you have no idea, have you? and I think I posted a very simple and plain response. If you have read more into it that's not really my fault. You asked for opinions...

On a wider basis however, I do feel that you are using the names of certain organisations when they possibly may not care for them to be used alongside what is after all a commercial concern. A gentle 'ahem'....

http://www.spab.org.uk/whatis_howwork.html

The following places hold lime courses I see:

http://www.buildinglimesforum.org.uk/courses.htm

 

[biffvernon]

Excellent idea Peter. It doesn't sound at all overtly commercial to me but rather another much needed scheme to spread the word and will contribute to the conservation of our historic buildings.

I particularly like your suggestion that practical knowledge is more important than accreditation. I think there are too many certificates in the world and so I stopped collecting them a long time ago.

 

[Nemesis]

Biff - that's one of the least well-informed posts I've seen on this site for some while.

As one poster said to me today... registering hasn't made much difference, has it?

 

[MattJ]

I found great difficulty finding courses on the use of lime when I needed to learn, so the more the better, but accrediting the course with the recognised convervation and restoration bodies would be necessary.

The body responsible for the area of outstanding national beauty that I live on the edge of runs dry stone walling courses. They might be the type of organisation who might like your mobile course idea.

Matt

 

[Nemesis]

Conservation bodies are not however in themselves course accreditors...

Some do of course already run such mobile courses, and will arrange others for particular groups.

 

[bournonite]

Matt and Biff ... thanks for the comments...

As I said in the original post - I'm well aware of the need for accreditation - and have spent months now working with both the Ironbridge Institute (Uni of Birmingham) CITB (which, to the other poster who appears a bit short of knowledge on accreditation..) is the Construction Industry Training Board, and other people including English Heritage and Spab, to work out how to accredit such courses. ALL of these bodies are aware of the need, and all of them are keen to see a formal level of accreditation to be adopted. I have just been asked to attend a meeting of some of these bodies with a view to our putting such a scheme in place. The common problem that they all acknowledge, is the cost of doing it, the cost of policing and implementing it, and the consequent mass of paperwork and exams, which takes the emphasis away from what, after all, is a process of chucking stuff at walls.

All these reasons are why each of these bodies has encouraged us to design and implement courses in which people get their hands dirty and learn to do the business - their accreditation being the point at which we, the tutors, stand back and say ' Bloody good wall - well done - that looks like a nice finish for your kitchen wall...' Yes, there are other courses out there - just have a look at how many, if any, of them are taught by people who are actually doing this as their job, day in, and day out. Not many.

Did the old boys from Roman times to late Victorian times have Spab, CITB and English Heritage tickets? No.... they just learned how to do it and got on with it.

We just would like to know precisely what people would like to learn, and how much they think is reasonable for a 2 day, three day, week long course doing it. The people doing the course will be the judge of whether they are getting value for money - I'd love to see posts here from people who have done it - they will judge for themselves..!

I didnt realise how contentious an issue this might be - I'm not interested in politics - I just want to chuck my hat in the ring and try to help encourage better knowledge of how to keep old (and new) buildings alive..

Cheers!

Pete

 

[Nemesis]

I am very, very aware of what the CITB is, and aware of far, far more than you give me credit for.

I am extremely aware of what is happening in the wider world of conservation, and the need for skills training and. when appropriate, accreditation in the care and repair of historic buildings.

I am however rather surprised by your initial post which suggested that there were no such courses around, when you must be aware that there are, and quite surprised at your suggestion that SPAB, English Heritage et al issue 'tickets'.

I also think your suggestion that many who run courses already in existence don't have the required level of expertise and practical skills to teach others may be slightly at fault.

I think your attitude in your rather unpleasant post in answer to mine indicated to me that I wouldn't be happy on one of your courses, and you may have a great deal to learn about teaching people.

I think SPAB et al is perfectly capable of carrying out its own research, and I am still of the opinion that basically you are touting for custom. Others don't do it on this site, why should you?

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.8417

Training
Craft Skills

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Traditional Building Craft Skills
There is a shortage of practitioners skilled in the traditional crafts necessary to conserve and restore our historic buildings. These include bricklayers, carpenters, flint workers, lime-plasterers (including pargetters), stone-masons and thatchers. English Heritage has joined forces with CITB-Construction Skills (Sector Skills Council for Construction) to form the National Heritage Training Group (NHTG). The NHTG is responsible for implementing a coherent strategy for training and skills provision in the traditional building crafts sector.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heritage Lottery Fund: Traditional Building Craft Skills Bursary Scheme for England and Wales
The Heritage Lottery Fund is providing funding to a partnership of English Heritage, The National Trust, Cadw, CITB-ConstructionSkills and the National Heritage Training Group to establish and deliver £1 million Traditional Building Skills Bursary Scheme.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be useful to know where 'Heritage House' fits in to this, but as I seem not to be going to receive any answers, I am suspicious...

 

[BMcD]

Bournonite wrote:

Did the old boys from Roman times to late Victorian times have Spab, CITB and English Heritage tickets? No.... they just learned how to do it and got on with it.

Yes but they didn't do a 3day course. They had formal apprenticeships and passed down skills from generation to generation. Do you honestly think people can learn to plaster in 3days? And to be self accrediting as you suggest

- their accreditation being the point at which we, the tutors, stand back and say ' Bloody good wall - well done - that looks like a nice finish for your kitchen wall...'

is wrong you should be offering a recognisable qualification. I have no end of people who have attended courses such as the type you propose asking for jobs because they think they can plaster after being told so by self appointed instructors. I dread to think how many people are out there trading on the basis of these courses (no wonder the construction industry has a bad rep.). So unless you offer formal training over at least 3 months full time or day release for 3 years with further site experience then I personelly have no time for them.
Every body's always harping on about the lack of skilled labour and these courses don't help as they con people into believing they are competent trades people. If anybody's serious about learning a trade then go to collage.

 

[Lime]

The core of this thread is a tout for trade.

 

[Nemesis]

I suggest that the HELM link is followed by those interested in skills training, and there is further information there (click on the red lettering) regarding the wider issue and bodies involved.

I also have looked carefully at the website of 'heritage house' (dot org... which in itself I find a spot unsettling) and I see that:

Peter Ward
Business manager. Responsible for overall management and paper pushing! Peter has considerable experience in the business world. After University In the early 1980's, he ran a farm contracting and building company, but sold this when he moved to Australia. 4 years running gold mines followed, before setting up a mining software development company. This became one of the largest mining and farm software companies globally. He sold this to return to England in 1999, to restore period properties. He, Tony and Jim met when they were working on a project which required specialist rendering and plastering. In his spare time Peter maintains links with the mining industry and collects mineral and gem specimens. He has two horses, and works with them whenever he can.

I think that there is a strong smell of bull about much which has been written here today, and I'd suggest that good business sense doesn't involve trying to pull wool over anyone's eyes.


I too am deeply concerned that the whole skills issue seems to be being reduced here to short courses open to anyone in order to learn to plaster the kitchen.

I am also concerned that there seems to be a suggestion that this will somehow be accredited by SPAB...

 

[bournonite]

BMcD - thanks!

I appreciate the comments re: length of course - and the accreditation issues attaching to anyone teaching - this is just the sort of feedback I'm looking for! The big issue for anyone wanting to learn is that there is really nothing out there to help them become a professional - my partner Jim was trained by his dad for many years - you can't beat that.

Offering a recognised qualification is the problem - there really isnt one yet - and the really skilled people that know how to do it dont have the skills to become trained teachers - my partner Jim is a hands-on craftsman, can teach people brilliantly, but there's no way he can go to college for years to learn how to become a teacher in order to be 'qualified' to teach lime plastering! (His wife is, you guessed it... a teacher) You're either a teacher who knows how to push bits of paper around to satisfy government targets, or you're a craftsman.

There are 2 issues here - helping people make minor repairs and to UNDERSTAND the lime process - knowing what approach to take and when to bring in a professional, and then the issue of learning to become a professional. We've tried to train people - but as soon as they acquire any form of skill, they take off on their own - old fashioned apprenticeships had a form of indenture - you had to work for the trainer for so many years in return for them teaching you the trade. Modern employment contracts dont really allow for that.. If someone wants to learn, we'll gladly take them on-board (given that its viable). Our little company is small, but well managed (I have years of management and finance experience) and we have a structure within which we can train - and more importantly - a desire to train. We desperately need more skilled people in this industry.

There's no easy answers to this, I admit freely - but so far I've got some really useful and encouraging feedback from this thread, much of it as private replies - so it seems it's a sensitive issue too.

Cheers!

 

[Nemesis]

So - you haven't actually got courses in the pipeline 'accredited by SPAB' then?

I'm afraid I still think there's a strong whiff of bull here, a great deal of avoiding the questions, and agree with Lime - the core of this thread is a tout for trade.


http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.4625

 

[Maris]

I’ve been on introductory courses twice: one was an introduction to cob, the other to lime. Both were very good as introductions, but neither place did anything else.
I’d love to be able to do ‘further’ courses, purely practical ones at that. A day or 2 days where I turn up, get a coffee and then get set straight to work, be it plastering, pointing, mixing lime for plaster or lime-wash or whatever, would be great.
A lot of courses, in fact all that I’ve looked at so far, are aimed at ‘introducing’ people to the subject generally, then move straight into the ‘aimed at professionals’ stuff- the latter are far more expensive and obviously a bit off-putting for those who only want to do their own house! I want to able to do further short courses that are a bit more in-depth. I’d like to see them held more often too- not just 1 or 2 a year.

Having said that, the more courses there are for any level, the better. And a few more in Cornwall wouldn’t go amiss, if anyone from SPAB is reading this…

 

[Nemesis]

This may be an appropriate place to post this.

There are many levels of training regarding the historic environment. from practical to theoretical, but this may interest some, from this week's Heritage Link update:

AA Postgraduate Building Conservation Course

Applications are still being received for this year's entry to the two year part-time Postgraduate Building Conservation Course established at the Architectural Association in 1971. The course, part-time on Fridays at the Architectural Association in Bedford Square London WC1, runs for 32 weeks of the academic year, starting in October. The course offers a well established and balanced mixture of lectures, site visits and discussion fora.

Further details are available on the website at http://www.aaschool.ac.uk/bc or from the Course Co-ordinator, Clem Chung, on 020 7887 4025 or Clement @ aaschool. ac. uk

 

[Maris]

I should probably add that Cornwall is not completely devoid of useful courses:

http://www.csbt.org.uk/publish/docs/Course_programme_8_06_06.html

Some of the people that have worked on our house did training with the CSBT (Cornwall Sustainable Buildings Trust) and they are brilliant.