This time it's about Oil Boilers

[Flyfisher]

Thanks for the additional info Sidd. I've also thought about thermal stores and would be interested in your conclusions. I spent some time earlier today investigating the cost of a gas connection. Seems it will be at least £1200, although that could be reduced to around £200 if I arrange for the piping across my property. Might be worth it for £1000, although I haven't managed to pin down the gas connection point yet, so it's hard to tell.

I'm not really sure about the general view of gas-vs-oil prices; are they likely to stay roughly the same (relatively) or will gas increase ahead of oil if/when north sea production slows down - or is all this so far off that it's inconsequential?

 

[sidd]

I'm no expert on gas vs. oil prices, but I would guess that any imbalance in the price of them would be redresed in the medium term, as major users switch to the cheaper one. There's still quite a lot of oil and gas around, but I do think average price levels will be higher in the next 10 years than the last 10 years because of geopolitical issues not unrelated to the diminishing supply of natural resources. My best guess is that gas will remain a little below oil in price, and it will probably not fluctuate in price as much as oil does.

If I could get gas I'd be very happy. I'm going to be spending at least a couple of thousand on a new oil tank.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've always assumed that UK gas prices were generally lower than gas because it was being piped from the local North Sea fields. If it has to be transported from further afield then I'd assumed it could become more expensive than oil. But I don't really know. I wonder if gas is generally cheaper than oil throughout the world?

You're right about oil tanks though, especially the larger ones; perhaps they would more than offset the gas connection charges.

 

[Aidan]

RE: Pressurise hot water tanks.
We had a "Megaflo" made by Heatrae Sadia which was fitted in the basement because there was no space in the shapped V roof for a tank..

There's usually problems in fitting them in basements, if there're only drains at ground level, since the drainage from the 2 relief valves is by gravity.

We got mains pressure hot water in the hand basin 3 stories up, the bath 2 stories up filled very fast and the shower 1 storey up (Aqualisa if it matters) could bruise you if you turned it to the massage setting
I would definitely consider it in comparison to the feeble trickle we get from our vented system in the loft here.

They're fine if the mains pressure and flow rate is adequate. It isn't in many cities.

Our current showers are electrically pumped to compensate for the lack of pressure, and even with 2 storeys of down there is no rate of flow in the kitchen.

Pipes undersized, valves partially closed or (quite common) designer taps bought for their appearance, rated for mains pressure and with excessive internal resistance for a gravity system. Euro plumbing fittings can be sold throughout the EEC, but most aren't designed for the UK water storage systems. Gravity systems are adequate for most fittings, except showers, usually.

 

[skier-hughes]

Seems it will be at least £1200, although that could be reduced to around £200 if I arrange for the piping across my property.

I'd be wary......

Our water was...... about £200, for a standard connection sir. We had three connections done at the same time, so thought maybe £600 or a bit less as they all go in the same hole in the ground,

£3,600 not including from the road to the house, which was about another £2,500 - ok that bit was 450m.

 

[Flyfisher]

Ouch! - over £6k for a water connection :shock:

I'm certainly wary, especially given our distance from any roads. But I bet they would charge to come out to give me an actual quotation. Maybe I should call them and ask.

I got my figures from here. It's for the east but if you 'back up' the url you'll find links to other areas.

Presumably it was once worthwhile for the gas company to connect new customers, but with all this deregulation the pipes are completely different to the people that actually sell the gas, so there's no on-going incentive for the grid company after the initial installation.

 

[skier-hughes]

They won't give you any idea over the phone.

I tried being as we'd got the ditch already dug.

I was told as we are more than 40m from the mains pipe then they won't quote anyway, put me in touch with another company.
Phoned them, they told me to phone national grid.
Eventually got to wsomeone who could talk for themsleves, but then all they could tell me to do was fill in the form and send it.
They'd look at it, send someone down and then quote.

I gave up.

 

[Flyfisher]

Was it possible to get them to tell you where the connection point would be? If I could find that out then at least I could decide if it is worth digging my own trench.

At least with water, they can put the meter just a couple of metres inside your boundary and leave you to connect from there to the house. But I get the impression that for gas they have to pipe it right up to a meter inside the house, or in one of those boxes mounted on the outside wall. So there needs to be some liaison somewhere, unless they just expect to turn up, do whatever they want and then charge accordingly, so you get little idea of what the cost will actually be until it's too late.

I'd certainly like to know if it was going to cost £6k!

 

[MdB]

When I asked about getting a gas connection, you had to draw a little map of where you wanted the meter box to be fitted and they then worked out a costing from that. We were 30m from the main but it would have cost us £3000 to get connected which I thought was excessive. There was small cost reduction if you dug your own trench on your property but not a lot.

 

[skier-hughes]

Gas.
They said we could dig the trench on our property, and maybe lay the pipe as well, but I can't be 100% on that bit.
No they couldn't tell me until I'd applied!!!!

Water.
You have to dig your trench and lay your pipe with 1m extra at your boundary.
They come to inspect it. If it's passed they then initiate the work at the road end.
On long runs the meter is just outside your property boundary, so any leaks on your property are your problem for paying for the water.

 

[Flyfisher]

Thanks both. Sounds like I'll have to go through the application process to get a price then. Presumably they can't charge me anything until I've signed a contract, which I won't do unless I have a price. £3000 sounds a bit ominous though; we'll be over 30m from the boundary - perhaps our only hope is that a pipe already runs through the property, although I doubt it because we already receive easments for electricity but I've never seens any paperwork for gas.

 

[skier-hughes]

we'll be over 30m from the boundary

Makes no odds how far you are from the boundary, as the mains pipe may be a good distance from said boundary.

 

[Flyfisher]

I was thinking of the part of the trench that I might be able to dig, but you're right of course, the actual gas main could be anywhere

 

[AMc]

(I'm not a plumber)

There's usually problems in fitting them in basements, if there're only drains at ground level, since the drainage from the 2 relief valves is by gravity.

One of them did drip a little bit when the air gap needed regenerating - a bucket was the high tech solution. Then I read the sticker on the side and learnt to regenerate the air bubble now and again.

The house is in North London, mains pressure wasn't that good when we moved in but improved after a couple of years when Thames Water's Victorian Mains replacement program replaced all the piping in the street. Hot water pressure even at the unpumped shower a storey above, was never a problem.

Gravity systems are adequate for most fittings, except showers, usually.

It's hard to compare "apples with apples" The fitting here is decidedly amateur IMHO and there have been some really strange and unhelpful decisions about the water and sewage - the other house was recently renovated by a decent builder.

My experience of a pressurised system was 'very good' where as my experience of a gravity fed system is 'below average' - I fully expect other people's experiences to differ.

 

[skier-hughes]

I was thinking of the part of the trench that I might be able to dig, but you're right of course, the actual gas main could be anywhere

Suffolk?

According to Penners all the good bits are there :wink:

 

[sidd]

I think I'm right in saying that with a thermal store, you can have mains pressure water without an expansion vessel.

Because the expansion tank for heating only needs to be above the highest radiator, that can go at the top of a cupboard, within the heated part of the building.

And the hot water part doesn't need one. The Torrent thermal store has a vented expansion vessel inside, but its not under any pressure.

So you get all the benefit of mains pressure water without the expansion vessel, the annual service that some unvented tanks need (Megaflo doesn't anyway as far as I know), or an expansion tank in the loft.

In fact this Torrent tank is pretty good for Aga owners (a) becaue it allows mains pressure water with an Aga, (b) because you can also use it to run radiators off an Aga, (c) you can also attach a solar panel to it and (d) if you really need to you can turn the immersion heater on too. Oh yes, and I think you can have a secondary boiler attached to top up if necessary.

 

[Nemesis]

Just thought this an appropriate place to post this:

http://www.solarpvgrants.co.uk/housingtrade/news/dailynews/index.cfm?mode=view&articleid=18105966

 

[sidd]

Very interesting. Where listed building solar siting can tick both boxes...

1. Doesn't affect the historical fabric of the building (permanently)
2. Doesn't affect the look of the building (in important directions)

...I think we will hear about this more and more, but that doesn't mean all listed buildings should be covered in black panels.

Just because something has potential to be the thin end of the wedge doesn't make it wrong on its own merits, and we have to trust COs to apply suitable judgement, rather than be obstructive in case it sets a precedent.

The York press did a poll, which is far too simplisic, but it doesn't surprise me... http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1297042.mostviewed.solar_flareup.php

My search for efficiency has now taken me to air source heat pumps for summer hot water when the Aga is off. It's not as efficient as solar, but I think I might get some air conditioning for free. I'll post any progress.

 

[Nemesis]

The latest SPAB News 'Cornerstone' had some thought-provoking things to read.

Letters page:

Solar panels are not right on old houses

I am not clear what the question is that Nigel Gilmour is referring to in his article on solar panels (Vol 27 No 4). If the question is about the acceptability of solar panels on old houses, then the pictures shown clearly indicate that they are not visually acceptable. However, there are other ways of reducing renewable energy that do not compromise appearance.

Foremost must be energy reduction; secondly the purchase of green electricity. Then there are the possibilities of utilising geothermal/air source heat pumps or replacing heating systems with micro combined heat and power (CHP) units.

Solar panels may be effective and look right on new-build energy-efficient houses, but they are not right for older properties of character.

Dr Malcolm Davison.

 

[sidd]

they are not right for older properties of character.

Dr Malcolm Davison.

He may have a Phd in something but that is opinion dressed up as fact in my book. Usually academics cite and deal with facts, rather than unsubstantiated, unqualified and simplistic opinion.

He could be a medical doctor, and I gather many dentists call themselves Dr. these days. Pity he is not here to defend himself. That would be fun...

But I do agree with the energy reduction bit. I'm still skeptical of "green" electricity. I suspect that it's a bit of a bandwagon like organic food which travels roun the world, or gets fed anti-biotics on a "non-routine" basis.