The UK Low Carbon Transition Plan

[biffvernon]

Well Oriel, if you feel is's not a pleasant place to post, then don't. Leave it to those of us who do. But if you have positive contributions to make, helping this to remain a usefula and enjoyable forum, then do habg around.

No idea what you mean, Worms. :wink:

Graham, why can't don't you DIY? There are certainly people who will take a lot of money from you if you let them, but there again, I hear the cost of pv is falling.

 

[Schoolmarm]

I wouldn't dream of having them on the main house but would be very interested in them on outbuildings. Are they for heating water or generating electricity? :?

We have a tiddly one for powering the lights in the coalshed/water treatment room.

 

[skier-hughes]

Biff, it's a time/cost/ability issue. I don't really have the time, I can afford to pay, I don't really have the ability.
I'm only looking at Solar heating currently, plus fitting a new wood burner with back boiler to do central heating, rework some of the plumbing, fit new hot water tank and a large wotsit tank. Much as I am trying to be green wearing 10 jumpers and two pairs of gloves in the middle of winter isn't conducive to fast working and all the fuel etc I save by not travelling to a place of work and having that heated to the regulatory x' I feel justified in having a bit of comfort

 

[Cloudscape]

Since it has been mentioned, I'm interested in the idea that this forum is failing and underachieving - that it's somehow unworthy. We're here - most of us - because we have taken on a piece of architectural heritage. Properties owned by forum members seem to range from the grand to the vernacular, and many of us are deeply immersed in our projects, at our own levels. Some of us throw everything we have into it and undergo massive life changes. We all go through different phases with our properties - excitation, exhaustion, bafflement, stress, poverty, pride. At the same time, many of us also have other burdens - some shouldered willingly. These range from the health, safety, well-being and happiness of our immediate circle, to making a difference on a local level, to national and global concerns - both in the here/now and in the future.

Where I think PPUK does work is that it drifts on and off topic, that it is often potty and good-natured, that there is camaraderie and support. I disagree that the forum doesn't have 'soul'. The internet is a big bad place and many forums and social sites are like a bear pit. The levels of soapboxing, aggression and sheer lack of 'soul' can be quite frightening (and genuinely upsetting). But because of the reason why we all came here in the first place, there is endless scope for the more focused and serious issues relating to period property and buildings conservation. The tabs across the top seem to indicate that the focus of the forum is supposed to be care, maintenance, conservation, shopping, insuring, and buying/selling.

I can't see a tab that says "Chat aimlessly", nor one that says "Take everything seriously".

This thread was impressive because, it terms of online social interaction, it actually seems to work. The fact that it was punctuated with slogans advertising horses gave it a lot of charm, and charm is in short supply these days. I'll take it wherever I can get it. It's rare to see banter and camaraderie online where those involved in it aren't a clique that's taken over a forum. I have droned on about this before, but I've been moderating a busy forum for years now and I've seen it change, for better and worse, but the lowest points are where closed cliques have taken over.

If you pitch the forum at the 'top end' - all serious 'period' stuff - it might be a heck of a lot more worthy in terms of adhering to a 'remit'. But then all you have is a sliding scale of unworthiness below you. Not everyone is very brave or adept online, and if the forum is too serious and 'expert', they won't post, they won't learn, and... they'd probably (worse case scenario in period-property terms) do dreadful things to their houses.

If you pitch the forum down the 'bottom' end, you've just got a well-behaved Twitter or Facebook... all wittering and no content.

If you pitch the forum in the middle, cut people some slack, it can go every which way. You can have some silliness (which can also be support and companionship) and some good solid educational stuff as well.

Personally, I wouldn't knock PPUK. It will evolve and may swing in any direction. But such a swing is usually natural. Putting your boot behind it won't necessarily work.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Cloudscape - thanks; a very well argued post. This site is a community and has a spirit. As such, it meanders between very worthy and more frivolous, often within the same thread. It has its jesters, librarians and village idiots (self-nomination there :wink: )

When (genuine) new posters arrive and ask questions, the more knowledegable come out of the shadows and provide real, experienced and valued advice. For much of the rest of the time, we muddle along chatting together, find we have quite a bit in common and much that differs but is also of interest, and together we motivate and help each other with our own projects too. I think most of us are happy with that - if not we can together develop it in a different direction.

The internet is a very big place, with lots of choice. Anyone who doesn't like this site doesn't need to keep coming back and carping on as if they own it. They are free to make their own choice elsewhere - heck, they could even start their own site and see where that leads them.

It is called democracy; and just to prove a point, you are all free to disagree with me as much as you like (or even ignore me altogether) - and I'm very glad you are able to, for I wouldn't dream of suggesting my incoherent ramblings are worth and more than anyone else's contributions! 8)

 

[biffvernon]

Biff, it's a time/cost/ability issue. I don't really have the time, I can afford to pay, I don't really have the ability.

I don't believe the ability bit - plumbinf is definitely not the same as rocket science, but yes, if you are monet rich and time poor then you just have to pay someone else to do the work and not begrudge it. If you lived within commuting distance I'd fit you up with a stove and a solar panel and the bill that goes with the work. I rather like charging customers the same hourly rate that they earn in their own job. A kind of new egallitarianism.

A neighbour of mine has an evacuated tube system. They are very 'efficient' in term of how much of the incident solar energy they convert to heat in water but there are a lot of things that can go wrong. Last week they had a failure (owing to the sun shining rather too much) and picked up a £400 bill for the repairs. That's the sort of price one might pay for a whole system made of scrap materials.

 

[skier-hughes]

Well I can always put you up for a couple of days!!!!
I don't mind paying you my daily rate, which is pretty crap, my work these days is mostly voluntary, now if you wanted Jo's rate she may have something to say
I'd be interested in details of the failure if you know more, help with my research.
Which is the best site to read for info,
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/
or?

 

[Schoolmarm]

Graham :shock: be careful of that site, there is an almost evangelical bloke who just wants period properties pulled down.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Yes, and some of us who don't, and I can't see him really getting his own way, can you?

:lol: :lol: :lol: not really 8)

 

[Flyfisher]

Good points Cloudscape, I entirely agree.

I can vouch for the fact that PPUK works very well because without the contacts I've made through the site I would never have taken on my project and begin to reverse the years of neglect that was starting to cause real damage to the building. I think I've caught it just in time.

I may be guilty of not posting many questions recently but that's only because it's now easier and quicker to directly call the key people I've met through PPUK and who have been amazingly helpful in providing their experience and expertise in the common goal of doing the best for my house. And I don't just mean a chat or a few emails - an hour's drive, clambering around on scaffolding and sheer hands-on graft have often been involved.

So, yes, topics may digress and even, shock horror, occasionally descend into some daft diversions, but isn't that how real-life works? This forum unites a community of people who share an interest, passion even, in period properties but that doesn't make them nerds with identical views and no other interests so, naturally, the discussions reflect this. Fortunately it's now possible to engage in such discussions in a civilised manner without incurring any abuse. Long may it continue.

As for solar (water heating) panels, I would love to install some but was advised a couple of years back that I would not get LBC for them, even though it would be quite an easy and completely non-destructive job since the roof is already being worked on (for which I do have LBC of course). Perhaps I should re-investigate this - sentiments to such things may have moved on, especially with HIPs and energy reports etc. So much to do - so little time!

 

[Pford75]

Re: The UK Low Carbon Transition Plan
by Cloudscape on Tue 21st Jul, 2009 10:51

Since it has been mentioned, I'm interested in the idea that this forum is failing and underachieving - that it's somehow unworthy. We're here - most of us - because we have taken on a piece of architectural heritage. Properties owned by forum members seem to range from the grand to the vernacular, and many of us are deeply immersed in our projects, at our own levels. Some of us throw everything we have into it and undergo massive life changes. We all go through different phases with our properties - excitation, exhaustion, bafflement, stress, poverty, pride. At the same time, many of us also have other burdens - some shouldered willingly. These range from the health, safety, well-being and happiness of our immediate circle, to making a difference on a local level, to national and global concerns - both in the here/now and in the future.

Where I think PPUK does work is that it drifts on and off topic, that it is often potty and good-natured, that there is camaraderie and support. I disagree that the forum doesn't have 'soul'. The internet is a big bad place and many forums and social sites are like a bear pit. The levels of soapboxing, aggression and sheer lack of 'soul' can be quite frightening (and genuinely upsetting). But because of the reason why we all came here in the first place, there is endless scope for the more focused and serious issues relating to period property and buildings conservation. The tabs across the top seem to indicate that the focus of the forum is supposed to be care, maintenance, conservation, shopping, insuring, and buying/selling.

I can't see a tab that says "Chat aimlessly", nor one that says "Take everything seriously".

This thread was impressive because, it terms of online social interaction, it actually seems to work. The fact that it was punctuated with slogans advertising horses gave it a lot of charm, and charm is in short supply these days. I'll take it wherever I can get it. It's rare to see banter and camaraderie online where those involved in it aren't a clique that's taken over a forum. I have droned on about this before, but I've been moderating a busy forum for years now and I've seen it change, for better and worse, but the lowest points are where closed cliques have taken over.

If you pitch the forum at the 'top end' - all serious 'period' stuff - it might be a heck of a lot more worthy in terms of adhering to a 'remit'. But then all you have is a sliding scale of unworthiness below you. Not everyone is very brave or adept online, and if the forum is too serious and 'expert', they won't post, they won't learn, and... they'd probably (worse case scenario in period-property terms) do dreadful things to their houses.

If you pitch the forum down the 'bottom' end, you've just got a well-behaved Twitter or Facebook... all wittering and no content.

If you pitch the forum in the middle, cut people some slack, it can go every which way. You can have some silliness (which can also be support and companionship) and some good solid educational stuff as well.

Personally, I wouldn't knock PPUK. It will evolve and may swing in any direction. But such a swing is usually natural. Putting your boot behind it won't necessarily work.
Since it has been mentioned, I'm interested in the idea that this forum is failing and underachieving - that it's somehow unworthy. We're here - most of us - because we have taken on a piece of architectural heritage. Properties owned by forum members seem to range from the grand to the vernacular, and many of us are deeply immersed in our projects, at our own levels. Some of us throw everything we have into it and undergo massive life changes. We all go through different phases with our properties - excitation, exhaustion, bafflement, stress, poverty, pride. At the same time, many of us also have other burdens - some shouldered willingly. These range from the health, safety, well-being and happiness of our immediate circle, to making a difference on a local level, to national and global concerns - both in the here/now and in the future.

Where I think PPUK does work is that it drifts on and off topic, that it is often potty and good-natured, that there is camaraderie and support. I disagree that the forum doesn't have 'soul'. The internet is a big bad place and many forums and social sites are like a bear pit. The levels of soapboxing, aggression and sheer lack of 'soul' can be quite frightening (and genuinely upsetting). But because of the reason why we all came here in the first place, there is endless scope for the more focused and serious issues relating to period property and buildings conservation. The tabs across the top seem to indicate that the focus of the forum is supposed to be care, maintenance, conservation, shopping, insuring, and buying/selling.

I can't see a tab that says "Chat aimlessly", nor one that says "Take everything seriously".

This thread was impressive because, it terms of online social interaction, it actually seems to work. The fact that it was punctuated with slogans advertising horses gave it a lot of charm, and charm is in short supply these days. I'll take it wherever I can get it. It's rare to see banter and camaraderie online where those involved in it aren't a clique that's taken over a forum. I have droned on about this before, but I've been moderating a busy forum for years now and I've seen it change, for better and worse, but the lowest points are where closed cliques have taken over.

If you pitch the forum at the 'top end' - all serious 'period' stuff - it might be a heck of a lot more worthy in terms of adhering to a 'remit'. But then all you have is a sliding scale of unworthiness below you. Not everyone is very brave or adept online, and if the forum is too serious and 'expert', they won't post, they won't learn, and... they'd probably (worse case scenario in period-property terms) do dreadful things to their houses.

If you pitch the forum down the 'bottom' end, you've just got a well-behaved Twitter or Facebook... all wittering and no content.

If you pitch the forum in the middle, cut people some slack, it can go every which way. You can have some silliness (which can also be support and companionship) and some good solid educational stuff as well.

Personally, I wouldn't knock PPUK. It will evolve and may swing in any direction. But such a swing is usually natural. Putting your boot behind it won't necessarily work.

Hear hear - great post and completely agree.

Biff - I also liked your reasoned and balanced post about this thread. On your questions about solar panels - We have considered installation....but I wouldn't want anything on the house - would need to be freestanding in the grounds. Can you recommend any particular types to evaluate?

 

[biffvernon]

Well I can always put you up for a couple of days!!!!
I don't mind paying you my daily rate, which is pretty crap, my work these days is mostly voluntary, now if you wanted Jo's rate she may have something to say
I'd be interested in details of the failure if you know more, help with my research.

Nah, sounds like I'd want Jo's rate + compensaton for overnight stops. Much better to DIY. The trouble with the evacuated tube panels is that they are capable of getting the water over 100 degrees, which means the system has to be presurised and the safety valve has to work and when it does you lose the coolant and then the pump overheats and dies and the result is a £400 bill. I think the problem started because there's a valve that shuts off further heat to the storage when it reaches 60 degrees to avoid the danger of scalding water in the tap. But there's nowhere else to dump the excess heat. That, to my mind, is a really really silly design flaw.

So don't buy that sort of system. Always ask where does the heat go if you don't want a bath on a sunny day.

Yes, there's loads of solar panel talk on the Green Building Forum.

There's a Gade I listed medieval church, St Dennys, Sleaford, not so far from me. I was talking to the bloke who installed several thousand quids worth of solar pv on it's roof recently. It's tucked behind the parapet of the south isle so can't be seen from the ground. Smart design.

 

[biffvernon]

Biff - I also liked your reasoned and balanced post about this thread. On your questions about solar panels - We have considered installation....but I wouldn't want anything on the house - would need to be freestanding in the grounds. Can you recommend any particular types to evaluate?

Me, reasoned and balanced, no chance. One advantage with freestanding on the ground (that's subtly different from in the grounds) is that you might get away with gravity feed to the hot storage tank. Rooftop installation needs a pump. Of course it may be a waste of ground but if you have grounds that may not be an issue but then you'd still need a pump what with the panel being out of site on the far side of the deer park.

As for type, I went for scrap aluminium from an old caravan, a heap of copper tube, some sheets of plastic glazing and some solder.

Making the panel double up as a roof, rather than being on top of a roof, is an economy.

Sunday, 5 July 2009
Solar power is heaven sent for parish church

SLEAFORD has become one of the first towns in the country to see its historic parish church fitted with solar power.

St Denys' Church has just taken delivery of 56 solar panels from Germany which are being fitted to the roof of the south nave by a team of expert engineers.

The £56,000 project will save 4.5 tonnes of CO2 emissions and generate 900KW or £1,300 worth of electricity a year in an effort by the church to do its bit for the environment and cut out greenhouse gases.

The project has been led by curate, the Rev Jeremy Cullimore who said that they were now looking at using some of the energy generated to heat the church, the rest will be sold to the National Grid.

He said: "This is the start of the project. Getting the panels has been a challenge and getting the funding has been a challenge, but we are going to save four-and-a-half tonnes of CO2 emissions a year. To get this on a Grade 1 listed church has been a real challenge, but also an opportunity because we can show here what we ought to be doing to protect out environment and save emissions, working with God given light that we can use to power out modern lifestyle."

The large panels, which are aluminium frames holding toughened glass backed with bulletproof Kevlar, are fixed to a system of racking to protect the lead roof. Cables run in through a window to a pair of convertors transforming the power from DC to AC current.

more

 

[biffvernon]

I'm not knocking ev tubes - just saying make sure that the whole system is designed failsafe. Here's a pretty pic of the solar panels on the church.

Oh, sorry, they seem to be tucked away. You have to be a pigeon to see them.

 

[biffvernon]

Meanwhile seems there's trouble at (wind)mill.
http://savevestas.wordpress.com/

 

[Flyfisher]

St Denys' Church has just taken delivery of 56 solar panels from Germany which are being fitted to the roof of the south nave by a team of expert engineers.

The £56,000 project will save 4.5 tonnes of CO2 emissions and generate 900KW or £1,300 worth of electricity a year in an effort by the church to do its bit for the environment and cut out greenhouse gases.

Biff, interesting project but a 43 year payback (and that's on the capital cost, never mind the annual interest) sounds a bit rich for most people. Although electricity prices will only rise over that time, which might reduce the payback time.

The other thing I wonder about is the embedded energy payback time. Any idea what this is for typical PV panels? Unless it's quite short, mass installation of such panels will actually increase CO2 emissions in the short term - a short term that the climate may not be able to afford.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Sadly, it's no longer a pleasant place to post. I'm certainly not alone in that view.
There's a great deal more I could say, but no doubt some will be sending you PM's very soon suggesting that I'm not encouraged.

Expertise isn't required, is it?

There's abuse and abuse, but then, you know that.

But as one of those (not always so civilised :? ) people who have put a number of people off this site, I doubt a bit of self reflection will come from you either. Remarkably unaware. So no, it's not a 'united community', far from it.

Draws deep breath...

Oriel - you've been back less than 24 hours and are already posting messages personally criticising other posters, dragging up the past and denigrating the site. I suggest this is neither welcome nor helpful. It has not been a feature of the site for a number of months now. Contrary to what you say this is a pleasant place to post. I invite anyone posting here recently to disagree that it is pleasant? Anyone?

I will ask you once, very nicely and very respectfully, will you please desist from again repeating the negative and personal behaviour that saw you banned from the site in the first place? Please?

We understand you don't like the site and wish it was different. We understand you don't like a number of us. We don't care about that, you're entitled to those opinions. We want the site to be a pleasant (nay, chatty at times) and above all, welcoming site. If you can post in the spirit of the site, please do. If you can't please find somewhere more in tune with your own approach.

Thanks.

If you can resist a public attack on me personally for posting this, then I guess we're making progress! :wink:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Meanwhile seems there's trouble at (wind)mill.
http://savevestas.wordpress.com/

Biff - interesting, and clearly worrying for those whose livelihoods depend on the factory in one way or another. What I don't understand, on the day when national debt hits an eye-watering £800bn, is why people think nationalising failing industries is the answer - and if it is, where do we draw the line?

I don't know much about the industry (am looking at grey-water harvesting before thinking of power), but surely the extent of government intervention should be to make the market oplace dynamic - such as by making feed-in tariffs attractive to small scale producers?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

If you can resist a public attack on me personally for posting this, then I guess we're making progress! :wink:

It was a pleasant request, no more, no less. Sadly unreciprocated.

Suggest we leave it there.

 

[biffvernon]

Ah-hem, now then children.

Yes, Flyfisher, I don't think anyone is pretending that the pv panels on the church are going to pay for themselves for a long time. It got a Lottery Fund and other grants I believe. Think of it as a prototype, a statement of intent or somesuch. In energy terms the payback is actually quite fast - makes it well worthwhile, but the price of pv is governed by the market where production facilities are actually lagging behind demand, keeping price well above the cost of production. There is a lot of investment in new production but it's not on stream yet. It might make pv a lot cheaper in the future - or that might just stimulate more demand, keeping the price as high as the market will bear. That's economics.

More importantly, every unit of electricity generated by pv allows a unit to be not generated by coal. So no matter what the cost, it helps on the global warming front. The trouble with coal powered electricity is that the cost of global warming is not internalised. That's the failure of economics.