The UK Low Carbon Transition Plan

[biffvernon]

Not much of a gamble. The Earth has not seen this sort of warming while human's have been around and previous warming were associated with mass extinctions.

Practical steps: the government is introducing elctricity feed-in tariffs from April 2009 and the Renewable Heat Incentive will make payments to households for solar heating from April 2011. The details are still up for discussion so get your influence in now.

Download all yesterday's publications from http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/publications/lc_trans_plan/lc_trans_plan.aspx#1.

 

[Tom]

OK, here's some fuel to the fire...

...I couldn't give a tinker's t*ss about my so-called carbon footprint. I don't care about the world when I'm not here. I'm not interested in people pulling at my heartstrings about my grandchildren winging in the future. I really couldn't care less.

Of course, I know I'm not in the minority here. It's just that most people who don't act like sheep are usually pretty scared about airing their views.

Well, I've got my flameproof suit on ready for your replies. Bring it on...

Jaqy

 

[robgil]

OK, here's some fuel to the fire...

...I couldn't give a tinker's t*ss about my so-called carbon footprint. I don't care about the world when I'm not here. I'm not interested in people pulling at my heartstrings about my grandchildren winging in the future. I really couldn't care less.

Of course, I know I'm not in the minority here. It's just that most people who don't act like sheep are usually pretty scared about airing their views.

Well, I've got my flameproof suit on ready for your replies. Bring it on...

Jaqy

would it help if i said being green saves you money?

 

[Tom]

LOL Nah, not really. Seriously, I'm not interested. A certain percentage of my non-interest is from the dictatorial government we have. But even if I disregard that part, I just have no interest in saving the world. The whole thing leaves me cold.

By the way, did you get my message regarding the quarry tiles?

Jaqy

 

[FamilyWiggs]

My daughter's deli packages the food in paper or a biodegradeable corn-starch derived 'plastic' from Earthclear. It is an excellent material.

I wonder if it offsets the carbon footprint of all that nice Spanish and Italian stuff her website says she imports, presumably by plane or truck?

See, the problem is that all this fiddling around the edges is, as pointed out by others, ultimately futile. Small token gestures make bugg*r all difference, whilst big gestures impoverish us and make us less prepared economically and politically for the inevitable conflicts ahead.

Take an example that is more significant globally. We could close every one of our fossil-fuel based power stations tomorrow. As a result the UK carbon footprint would dramatically and permanently reduce massively. The trouble is, at the current rate of building them (1 per week I understand), the Chinese will have replaced them all in 13 month's time - net result, the UK is in the dark ages and we have deferred our carbon emissions by a whopping 13 months globally.

If carbon is the main cause of GW, there is bugg*r all we can do as a species to alter that fact - the population and economic stats just make it plain impossible. Until oil runs out and/or the global population reduces many-fold, there is nothing we will do that makes a jot of difference. Let's get real about that.

If we really want to protect our children and grand-children, we should:

a) as a nation, go hell for leather for increased economic and geo-political influence whilst we still can - we will be stronger and better able to weather the storms ahead. So let's burn the oil, make the plastics, and develop our infrastructure and technologies;

b) as individuals ensure we are sustainable - by which I mean self-sufficient. Having our own food, water, power, etc will protect our families better than trying to reduce our personal carbon footprint in spite of the rest of the world.

Biff - you may ultimately be right; or I may be right. But whilst there are sizeable numbers of people like me, and billions of people in developing nations, your strategy is doomed to fail, and probably was since the advent of the Industrial Revolution. Better to make hay while we can, and prepare for the turmoil ahead?

I wish you well in your quest and admire your tenacity - but I will be working for a personally sustainable future, as I'm pretty sure the planet is already f***ed. On a local level, the irony is that we are probably both taking similar actions...

Jacqy - can I borrow the flame-proof suit now please - think I'm going to need it...

 

[FamilyWiggs]

My last, sadly verbose and poorly argued, post could be summarised thus:

"When you've been dead for 500 years, you're only at the very very beginning of being dead. Live life while you can"

 

[biffvernon]

I wonder if it offsets the carbon footprint of all that nice Spanish and Italian stuff her website says she imports, presumably by plane or truck?

LOL - She's a leading light in the make food local campaign. For sure the coffee, chocolate and a few other hot-country products come from, er, hot countries, but the bulk of what she sells comes from within Lincolnshire, quite a lot of it from my land!

And don't blame the Chinese - they have a much lower per capita carbon footprint than us and are putting more resources into wind, solar and other renewable energy sources than any other nation. If Britain is to have 'geo-political influence' forget economic growth and concentrate on showing an example. Closing all the fossil fuel power stations would be a good start.

 

[Roger H]

Of course, I know I'm not in the minority here. It's just that most people who don't act like sheep are usually pretty scared about airing their views.

DWB – So the ‘sheep’ presumably are those that think that we shouldn’t use up the resources of the planet imprudently, and let the third world, future generations and non-human life pay for our indulgence?

I’d say the sheep were the ones who buy into over-consumption and the fashionable nihilism of living purely for the now and st#ff everyone else. A shame.

 

[Pford75]

And don't blame the Chinese - they have a much lower per capita carbon footprint than us and are putting more resources into wind, solar and other renewable energy sources than any other nation.

If we are to avoid the global catastrophe you predict, surely the emphasis should be on absolute carbon reductions rather than 'relative' or 'per capita'.

I could live on an island of 1 with the highest per capita carbon footprint in the world, but ultimately i have very little impact on the global condition. Whereas a country of 1.3bn might have a low per capita contribution, but a 1% change up or down would have massive global imapct.

Either this is a real concern (in which case politics, 'fairness' etc. shouldn't come into it), or there is room for debate around appropriate living standards (in which case that's a global debate and not just restricted to the developing world)

 

[biffvernon]

Er, you've missed my point. Of course the Chinese have got to stop burning coal, but we would be more likely to be heard by them if we had already stopped burning it ourselves. That's only going to happen if we ramp up our renewables by an order of magnitude. I've got a solar panel and a biomass boiler. What have you got?

(Actually, the way things seem to be moving in China, it could turn out that they will achieve more and faster than we do.)

 

[Flyfisher]

Just a small point but let's not confuse this whole issue with saving the planet. Whatever happens to the climate, the Earth will be fine, and life on Earth will also be fine. I'm sure many species will become extinct and others will adapt, but that's hardly something new; if it were then we wouldn't be here at all.

The real issue is the continuity of our civilisation and, as I've mentioned before, it's a social issue rather than a technological one. We don't seem to have a great track record on global social issues so why should climate change be any better? We won't be the first civilisation to have destroyed itself. We may not even be the last.

I realise there's a difference between pessimism, defeatism and realism and I'm not a pessimist by nature. However, reading the 'proposed solutions' bandied about makes me conclude that there's precious little realism in the whole debate.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've got a solar panel and a biomass boiler. What have you got?

Fine. But you still have a lifestyle/carbon footprint way in excess of a few billion people. How do you propose to get them all up to your standard of living, however humble you think it might be?

I used to average about 20 business trips a year (=40+ flights) all around the world but I've now given all that up so the reduction in my personal carbon footprint must be pretty dramatic. Does that mean I've done my bit and can relax?

 

[biffvernon]

you still have a lifestyle/carbon footprint way in excess of a few billion people. How do you propose to get them all up to your standard of living,

Yes and there's absolutely no chance, if by 'standard of living' you mean fossil fuel use. But I would very much like to attain a quality of life that could be sustainably shared by everybody on the planet. Utopian of course, but it provides a direction of travel to work towards. In fact to do anything else, the 'it won't/can't happen - I don't care' attitude is deeply unethical.

 

[robgil]

i see supermarkets may be going to charge people 15p for their bags. what is that going to solve? people who can afford it can pollute and people who cant afford it are being forced to be green? not only is that an unfair way to try and resolve the plastic bag land fill problem , its pretty pathetic and could be seen as just a way to put a price on something that was normally free. why does cost have to come into the equation? charging people for their pollution is not the answer , preventing them from doing so through alternative solutions might be more effective.

 

[Flyfisher]

you still have a lifestyle/carbon footprint way in excess of a few billion people. How do you propose to get them all up to your standard of living,

Yes and there's absolutely no chance, if by 'standard of living' you mean fossil fuel use. But I would very much like to attain a quality of life that could be sustainably shared by everybody on the planet. Utopian of course, but it provides a direction of travel to work towards. In fact to do anything else, the 'it won't/can't happen - I don't care' attitude is deeply unethical.

Hmm. Is it ethical to impose radical changes to people's lives in pursuit of an admittedly utopian goal? What, precisely, is your vision of a sustainable lifestyle that could support 9 billion people?

 

[philpjuk100]

15p for a plastic bag! whats that in yuan?

 

[biffvernon]

Hmm. Is it ethical to impose radical changes to people's lives in pursuit of an admittedly utopian goal? What, precisely, is your vision of a sustainable lifestyle that could support 9 billion people?

Not sure who you think is imposing what on whom but I can't see much wrong with pursuing utopian goals. It seems better than pursuing bad goals. No, I don't have a precise vision of a sustainable lifestyle, but I'm sure it can't involve burning much fossil fuel and if it can't support 9 billion then a lot of us will not get our four score yeas and ten.

But this forum is about Period Properties. I'm making some windows at the moment for a 400 year old mud and stud cottage that lies at about sea level. With a bit of care these windows and the rest of the house could last another 400 years. But they won't. They may not even see this century out. And it's because we are burning fossil fuel. Even the people here who don't care about their grandchildren or the rest of humanity might be concerned. If they care only about their own house on a hill they might worry that it will one day be requisitioned by those fleeing from lower land.

 

[Flyfisher]

Not sure who you think is imposing what on whom but I can't see much wrong with pursuing utopian goals.

Of course you do; you want everyone to stop burning fossil fuels.
Pursuit of utopian goals is fine, on an individual basis. The ethical dimension rears its ugly head when you wish to impose your utopian goals on others.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

But this forum is about Period Properties.

Since when? :shock:

Re the Chinese and showing our own moral leadership as an example. I must admit they don't seem to be following our lead on human rights, democracy, non-use of the death penalty, health and safety legislation, etc, etc, etc. Why would they follow our unilateral lead on scrapping coal-fired power stations?

Biff - do you really really honestly think that we can avert the effects of GW? Not a leading question - just wonder if folk really think that is possible (suspending the disbelief that humanity can act together for the greater good in sifficient time). Isn't the problem the latent effect of greenhouse gases (if they are the main cause of GW)?

 

[JoceAndChris]

OK, here's a green suggestion from me which would not only please environmentalists and significantly improve our quality of life, but also be happily accepted by many.

Revive horse travel.

It may not be practical for long journeys but so many of our journeys fall into the category of just a bit too far to comfortably walk, and carry shopping. A good horse would soon get me down to Sainsbury's, and the maddening reason I went for the more conventional learning to drive option was because Sainsbury's would not let me tether my horse by the trolleys.

Just think of the pleasure of going into work on horseback. In the country, many of us could get off the roads pretty much entirely, in the cities, there would need to be horse lanes and perhaps a share-a-horse scheme. Email me Boris, I've got it all worked out. The car would not be eliminated, but greatly reduced.

A horse in itself is not an expensive creature, and in larger properties would cut out all that tiresome mowing. There should be cash incentives to convert our garages back into stables, and free municipal grazing fields and stabling for the poor.

Gentlemen all over Britain would spend Sundays lovingly painting and polishing their curricles, gigs and traps - how glorious! And everyone would be fit, healthy, and rosy cheeked from all the bracing exercise.

And when the horses became too old for the journeys we could eat them, mmm, slow cooked in our Agas with red wine and chestnut mushrooms.