The General Election Thread

[biffvernon]

Come on - there was nothing anywhere near this level of protest when fees were first introduced. Perhaps you're right in saying that the stick was tempered by the promise of rising funding to expand the sector but where was that money going to come from. More borrowing?

There was nothing like this level of fees when first introduced, and no 40% cut in teaching funding.

Where does the money come from? Go back to Chris's graph. The questions are how much of our GDP should go to tertiary education - we are near the bottom of the list while I think we should be near the top. And what proportion of that funding should be from the private or the public purse. Our government want to move to private, like America; I prefer the Scandinavian model.

Talk of borrowing and debt is just (what do you get when you mix metaphorical smoke screens with red herring?) a smoked herring. Uk had a bigger national debt, in real terms, in 1945. So we had a massive expansion of the welfare state and public spending. Of course the future will be different as we find that economic growth, which allows debt-funded expansion, will no longer be possible in the post-peak-oil era.

(Nice video, Flyfisher.)

 

[JoceAndChris]

An ex-boss of mine, now vice-Chancellor of the UK's finest University (and I dont mean the one in Oxfordshire - apologies to Joce if she is reading this)

Tut. But my ear is still glued to the keyhole in the yellow withdrawing room, as the gentlemen discuss their politics in the room beyond. You must join us soon, and praise our embroidery.

 

[biffvernon]

Here's the mother of Alfie Meadows explaining how her son was refused entry to Westminster and Chelsea Hospital because he was a protester not a policeman.

http://www.brutalcops.net/post/2180243306/chelsea-and-westminster-hospital-refused-entry-to

Proud to be English?

 

[Penners]

No need for apologies, Feltwell. The only people posting on this thread are people who want to and the the thread title is suggestive of politics. Had the thread been named "Is this stucco Rococo?" or some such, objection might have been justified. Nobody is forced to read it.

I agree with Biff.

:shock:

Yes - that's really what I said..... :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

Talk of borrowing and debt is just (what do you get when you mix metaphorical smoke screens with red herring?) a smoked herring. Uk had a bigger national debt, in real terms, in 1945. So we had a massive expansion of the welfare state and public spending. Of course the future will be different as we find that economic growth, which allows debt-funded expansion, will no longer be possible in the post-peak-oil era.

That all seems a bit confused to me. Yes, the economic conditions and outlook were completely different in 1945, so the larger debt was less of an issue as the country embarked on a massive expansion of the economy. If a similar expansion was just as likely over the next decade or two then our current debt might be less of an issue. But, as you rightly point out, this is unlikely to happen, indeed things may get worse, so our current debt burden cannot reasonably be compared with 1945 and has to be tackled by reducing our spending rather than growing our economy. So the 'smoked herring' is to make the comparison in the first place.

But, if you will excuse me, I think now is the perfect time for a gentle stroll and then rejoin Joce and her embroidery. Hopefully, she'll be warming herself in front of a roaring fire. :wink:

 

[Moo]

Jenny McCartney seems to have a pretty balanced take on the riots: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...ion-fees-demo-We-protested-they-ran-riot.html

 

[biffvernon]

It is confusing and most of the British public are completely confused. That serves the purposes of the rich elite just nicely, thank you. You've almost got it though, Flyfisher. The thing I would add is that the economy, in a Business As Usual sense, will be doomed as we slide down the oil depletion slope. The rich elite know that so are positioning themselves to mitigate the damage to themselves at the expense of the rest. We need to grow the non-fossil fuel dependant sectors of the economy and, ultimately, develop a steady state economy.

Meanwhile, privatising tertiary education just gets the cost off the government's books and onto somebody else's.

 

[Penners]

It is confusing and most of the British public are completely confused.

We're all so fortunate to have Biff's guidance through this confusing maze.

Without it, we just wouldn't know what to think.

 

[Nigel Watts]

But my ear is still glued to the keyhole in the yellow withdrawing room, as the gentlemen discuss their politics in the room beyond. You must join us soon, and praise our embroidery.

Too busy today cooking, ferrying the kids and decorating the Christmas tree to join in. Did manage a few minutes to look at my Spectator. Here's a little quiz (extracted from one of their articles):

One of these questions is from a Chinese university entrance exam and one is from a British university's first year science exam paper. Can you spot which is which?

1. "In a square prism ABCD - A1 B1 C1 D1, AB=AD=2, DC = 2 * square root of 3, A A1 = square root of 3, AD is perpendicular to DC, AC is perpendicular to BD and the foot of the perpendicular is E. Prove that BD is perpendicular to A1 C."

2. Angle ABC is a right angle, AB = 3m, BC = 4m. What is the length of BC?

Forget the tuition fee sideshow. We all need to start learning Mandarin.

 

[Feltwell]

It's a subtle trick question you've posted there Nigel. How many of you looked at 2 and went "Huh! Easy, it's 5."

Either that or you meant to type AC :wink:

It is confusing and most of the British public are completely confused.

We're all so fortunate to have Biff's guidance through this confusing maze.

Without it, we just wouldn't know what to think.

A little harsh Penners, the view is no more extreme than many of the others posted.

I liked a quote from Rich Hall, an American comedian, that I heard recently:-

"What the hell happened to your politics? Gordon Brown was in charge, looking worried as usual. I go back to the States for a while and when I come back he's been replaced by two gay antiques dealers."

 

[biffvernon]

BC = 4m. What is the length of BC?

Inscrutable.

 

[biffvernon]

It is confusing and most of the British public are completely confused.

We're all so fortunate to have Biff's guidance through this confusing maze.

Without it, we just wouldn't know what to think.

A little harsh Penners, the view is no more extreme than many of the others posted.

Not harsh at all. Penners is perfectly correct, as always.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Edit - Long-post alert; undoubtedly with many chips-on-my-shoulder visible :wink: Apologies also - I was a little intemperate in the early hours when writing this. Peace and seasonal goodwill to all... 8)

It's all quite simple really.

We're broke. We've run out of things to make or sell. The only way we'll get GDP growth to come anywhere near that of China, India, Brazil, etc is to develop our intellectual capacity.

Not in the 'ologies or the pointless colouring in degrees that have been manufactured to satisfy some arbitrary goal of 50% going to university. But in difficult and important things - like medical research, physics, bio-tech, genetics and nano-technology. That is where our GDP growth is going to come from to keep our feckless consumerist poor in welfare dependency - and more importantly to fund our lingering and increasingly unhealthy demise.

Developing those skills requires word-beating university investment; which we can't afford. Universities understand that, business understands that and so do the Coalition. Lord Browne understood it too - hence his recommendation was to lift the cap entirely. I even think Labour understand it - which is why the commissioned Browne with such a wide remit in the first place.

This is not some silly party political squabble about keeping oiks out of university, or using the police as an arm of the Tories (come on chaps, do catch up, it's not the 1980s anymore; politics has matured somewhat). It is about realising urgent and massive investment into our top universities - look at the development of things like the Manchester science campus, etc. If we don't we're finished as a nation economically - the Chinese, Indians, etc don't need anything from us. That won't do much for our social mobility.

Nigel made a very good point - social mobility is far more affected by investment and intervention in very early years - and the Coalition are lapping up Frank Field on that. That's where the new money is going, and in Pupil Premium (£2.5bn to disadvantaged schools by 2014/15). The corolary is that some humanities students aren't going to get their degrees paid for them - and if that means a few choose not to spend three years pi$$ing my cash up a wall before still getting the inevtiable McJob - then so be it.

Penners made a good point too - start learning Mandarin. They're very bright, very hard-working and investing massively.

If you think education is the battle - wait til you see what Dave and Nick have in mind for those of us that class ourselves as "haves". We have all the money - especially the older ones. They want your assests and they're coming for them - to pay for your care. Look at the NHS reforms in England (which were largely on the books under a Labour victory too - co-pay exists in many places already). Look where Holland took their publically-funded Health Service over the past 15 years. Dave wants to take us there in 5...

We could sit around and squabble - or we could face up to basic maths. We're spending £700bn and earning £550bn. Our GDP growth is nowhere near enough to bridge the gap. The forthcoming demographic/care avalance is truly terrifying. :shock:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

But what do I know; a simple builder who didn't go to university at all. I never had the chance to smash up restaurants, let off fire extinguishers, trash people's offices and all the other japes that the Bullingdon Club got up to.

I was fortunate enough to go to University. No grant and a student loan for maintenance costs that I paid off once I was working. I was a second-generation graduate, from a long line of London bricklayers.

Unlike today's revolting students, I didn't feel the need to go to London to smash up shops, defile the Cenotaph, drop fire extinguishers off tall buildings towards policemen, trash other people's offices, harass people in cars, threaten violence and all the other japes that the NUS-organised marches have got up to. :roll:

C'mon - the politics of envy is pretty unedifying and doesn't get us anywhere.

Those of us on the right are just as passionate about social justice, social mobility and reducing the gap between haves and have-nots. We just happen to disagree over whether the State can solve it all or whether the market is a vehicle for driving up standards and delivering on aspirations.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Keeping the lower classes out of higher education keeps the country running, who would work out factories , take away our rubbish and work in the re-cycling centres sorting out our recycle bin rubbish? who would work our farms? clean our streets? if everyone had a degree?

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Crikey Rob - I don't think even I would have been quite that forthright!! 8)

 

[biffvernon]

Not in the 'ologies or the pointless colouring in degrees... But in difficult and important things - like ...nano-technology.

My degree was also an 'ology - geology. It involved a great deal of colouring in. Geological maps that I drew had to be hand coloured using water paints. It may have seemed pretty pointless once computer graphics were invented but at least the skills were transferable. I can paint the putty on a window without faffing about with masking tape.

It is very difficult to predict in advance what aspect of education will turn out to be unexpectedly useful. Conservation of our built heritage and concern for the education that is at the roots of our culture go hand in hand.

And here's some music for democracy: download and make make captain Ska Liar Liar Christmas #1
http://bit.ly/fXWvUt

 

[Penners]

It is confusing and most of the British public are completely confused.

We're all so fortunate to have Biff's guidance through this confusing maze.

Without it, we just wouldn't know what to think.

A little harsh Penners, the view is no more extreme than many of the others posted.

I'm not entirely sure where I made an accusation of extremism.

OK, the irony was a bit leaden (to mix my elements), but Biff is a rare character. He not only dishes out blunt, forthright opinion, but is prepared to receive it back in kind.

Admirable, IMO.

 

[LadyArowana]

IMO.

OMG Nooooooo, the aliens have abducted the real Mr P and substituted a txt speak doppelganger.

I have been even further away from the UK than usual and was treated to coverage of the unpleasant incident by Aussie broadcasters who rated it worthy of only a nanosecond.

 

[Penners]

aliens have abducted the real Mr P and substituted a txt speak doppelganger.

Mmmm? Eh? What?

Where am I? What year is it? The last thing I remember is drinking that strange-tasting potion.

 

[LadyArowana]

Mmmm? Eh? What?

Where am I? What year is it? The last thing I remember is drinking that strange-tasting potion.

Have the little green men at least cured your troublesome back injury with their advanced medical techniques, or did you not mention it ?