Research in energy efficiency incentives

[a twig]

Depends on how you look at the costs, if you have hacked back to bare brick/stone, then in my experience boarding out with woodwool and then skimming with NHL is generally a lot cheaper and quicker than getting someone in to do the necessary 3 coats of fat lime.

And don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, even 20mm of wood wool makes a noticeable difference

 

[NecessaryWing]

Yes, you could attach fibre board to those walls at a later date, you just need a fairly flat, (and obviously breathable), surface. It's best not to have too many air gaps behind the board when in place, but the 40 - 60mm thickness wood fibre board does have a bit of 'flex' which helps. Most people only do it on the external facing walls anyway.

Your walls are looking good!

Thanks. Below is the Ty-Mawr systems and how they suggest in terms of thicknesses of layers. Seems to recommend 100mm but people are saying more like 40-60mm is best then?

https://www.lime.org.uk/fileuploader/download/download/?d=0&file=custom%2Fupload%2FFile-1497875683.pdf

 

[paulc]

I do wish the government grants would accommodate the competent DIY'er as well as improved installers.

Too many people with their snouts in the trough. They wouldn't want savvy DIYers going out buying the materials at cost and doing the work themselves.

Interesting about adding character. You think it would compliment a period property to add extra depth to a window? 100mm+ is quite a bit of extra depth though.

If I have recently had these walls done (attached) in the standard base coat, skim coat etc in Ty-Mawr fat lime. Do you think the insulation could still go straight onto that if I later chose to? The 0.3 U value they boast is tempting for sure compared to 2.5 for our solid walls. I guess you could get away with just adding the insulation to the external facing walls only?

The insulation would only need to go on the external walls, as that is where the heat loss occurs. Older properties (thinking stone/rubble construction) have quite thick walls along with deep reveals around the windows. Where the walls are 9" solid brick, that extra 100mm gives you a decent depth to the window sill for the cat to sit or to stand a plant pot or two. Having done a couple of walls here, you'd be hard pushed to notice the extra depth.

 

[Lacan07]

Too many people with their snouts in the trough. They wouldn't want savvy DIYers going out buying the materials at cost and doing the work themselves.

Even if they just gave us VAT off the materials that would be a big help, especially when anything to do with eco/ traditional houses costs a bl**dy fortune.

 

[paulc]

Even if they just gave us VAT off the materials that would be a big help, especially when anything to do with eco/ traditional houses costs a bl**dy fortune.

Insulation materials are currently 0% VAT rated (except Northern Ireland), but only if you are paying a company to do the work (labour is also 0% rated) - All part of the snouts in trough programme... It would have made sense to zero rate the products at the point of sale. This would encourage the DIYers to have a go and avoid paying the rates some of these installers are charging.

 

[NecessaryWing]

Insulation materials are currently 0% VAT rated (except Northern Ireland), but only if you are paying a company to do the work (labour is also 0% rated) - All part of the snouts in trough programme... It would have made sense to zero rate the products at the point of sale. This would encourage the DIYers to have a go and avoid paying the rates some of these installers are charging.

Could you explain this. I didn’t know about these reductions. They have reduced labour and insulation materials VAT to zero? When I saw Grant Schapps pitch this on the news he said it was only available to council tax bands A-D (he actually said “council tax bands D or WORSE” - what a snob).

 

[Lacan07]

Insulation materials are currently 0% VAT rated (except Northern Ireland), but only if you are paying a company to do the work (labour is also 0% rated) - All part of the snouts in trough programme... It would have made sense to zero rate the products at the point of sale. This would encourage the DIYers to have a go and avoid paying the rates some of these installers are charging.

Exactly. This is what I meant, it's 0% VAT for traders only.

At the end of the day insulating a loft, or increasing the insulation already there, isn't the hardest job in the world and well worth the effort for anyone when you consider the benefits which far outweigh any other insulation implementation around the house.

 

[Lacan07]

Could you explain this. I didn’t know about these reductions. They have reduced labour and insulation materials VAT to zero? When I saw Grant Schapps pitch this on the news he said it was only available to council tax bands A-D (he actually said “council tax bands D or WORSE” - what a snob).

I'm not sure if its bound to council tax bands, a chap over on the Green Building Forum had some work done recently and he said when the quote came through he had to remind the builder it was 0% VAT under the Government scheme

 

[noj]

Last I saw was it was zero VAT on the labour rather than materials.

And that's really irritating...

 

[NecessaryWing]

I quoted this guy on a different thread to do with breathable masonry paints but just seen he has also had a crack at internal wall insulation in his period home:

He has used Kingspan though which is not breathable so I guess he’s risking it a bit with that material?

 

[malcolm]

Dot and dab insulated plasterboard would be very risky on a breathable building. It assumes you have a cavity wall with an air gap.

I'm plugging away with the insulation thing as I go along. 300mm loft insulation is low risk when you have ventilated eaves and you really notice the difference. I've gone for double glazed sash windows which are a bit wider than the single glazed ones and will need the wall building out with 20mm woodfibre to make them blend in. There is a bit of cellotex in stud walls I built while replacing the outside wall. Building regs made me do silly stuff in the kitchen but accepted woodfibre.

Most of the environmental solutions we are offered involve spending lots of money. Energy tends to be the major cost in making anything so if the payback in energy savings is less than the life of what you are buying it might not be environmentally friendly at all.

 

[a twig]

I quoted this guy on a different thread to do with breathable masonry paints but just seen he has also had a crack at internal wall insulation in his period home:

He has used Kingspan though which is not breathable so I guess he’s risking it a bit with that material?

Always apply scepticism to anyone on YT - why are they there, why are they using the products they are etc.

Just because they have knowledge / expertise in one thing doesn’t make them experts in something else

Personally I haven’t found Charlie DIYte’s videos very helpful for an old property, your mileage may vary

 

[Lacan07]

I quoted this guy on a different thread to do with breathable masonry paints but just seen he has also had a crack at internal wall insulation in his period home:

He has used Kingspan though which is not breathable so I guess he’s risking it a bit with that material?

I like Charlie, his videos are well made and informative and some of them have helped me in the past, although as Twig said above they aren't really geared to old houses so much. Now his YT presence has grown I wouldn't blame him for taking the 'coin', I bet he makes a comfortable living from those videos. He definitely has a tie in with Erbaur tools (Screwfix brand) and they're pretty decent gear for the serious weekend warrior.

He quite famously insulated a lot of the rooms in his house with rigid foam board . Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure I heard he ran in to problems afterwards when he had to remove a plug socket from a wall one day and found mould growing. I think it either came up in another video or in the comments section.

 

[Lacan07]

Dot and dab insulated plasterboard would be very risky on a breathable building. It assumes you have a cavity wall with an air gap.

I'm plugging away with the insulation thing as I go along. 300mm loft insulation is low risk when you have ventilated eaves and you really notice the difference. I've gone for double glazed sash windows which are a bit wider than the single glazed ones and will need the wall building out with 20mm woodfibre to make them blend in. There is a bit of cellotex in stud walls I built while replacing the outside wall. Building regs made me do silly stuff in the kitchen but accepted woodfibre.

Most of the environmental solutions we are offered involve spending lots of money. Energy tends to be the major cost in making anything so if the payback in energy savings is less than the life of what you are buying it might not be environmentally friendly at all.

And meanwhile China are making plans to build God knows how many more Coal furnaces.

The best thing anyone can do is insulate the loft as well as possible, its cheap (not so much for us in old houses!) and effective. I must say I admire people who stick to their single glaze original sash windows.

 

[LadyArowana]

You want one of these LadyA....

https://theoodie.co.uk/collections/products/products/elephant-oodie

I got my (permanently cold) daughter the sloth one, she loves it! They are very well made and really warm, and enormous - 5'8" daughter can curl up inside hers, no bother.

I sent a friend one for Christmas! Can‘t justify my own yet as I have to wear out a supply of onesies and dressing gowns!

 

[Feltwell]

I sent a friend one for Christmas! Can‘t justify my own yet as I have to wear out a supply of onesies and dressing gowns!

Drop hints to Lord A!

I got this for my daughter for Christmas, amongst other things. She willingly admitted that it is extremely appropriate.

 

[NecessaryWing]

@Lacan07 - ah that’s interesting. I would have been very surprised if he hadn’t ran into problems with a modern insulation board in his period home.

I insulated the loft up to the recommended amount which definitely helped. Our last house was modern and we did the same; I noticed a bigger difference in the last house.

I have read around online and it seems to say if you have part of your roof pitch in your upstairs rooms then standard loft insulation isn’t as effective and you need to insulate underneath the pitch for these bits separately? Maybe that’s why the standard loft insulation hasn’t been as effective. Anyone have this issue upstairs and found a good solution for a period home? Picture below.

 

[Lacan07]

@Lacan07 - ah that’s interesting. I would have been very surprised if he hadn’t ran into problems with a modern insulation board in his period home.

I insulated the loft up to the recommended amount which definitely helped. Our last house was modern and we did the same; I noticed a bigger difference in the last house.

I have read around online and it seems to say if you have part of your roof pitch in your upstairs rooms then standard loft insulation isn’t as effective and you need to insulate underneath the pitch for these bits separately? Maybe that’s why the standard loft insulation hasn’t been as effective. Anyone have this issue upstairs and found a good solution for a period home? Picture below.

View attachment 9952

Yes, this will definitely be cold spot in your room - all that's between you and the elements is roof tiles, felt, and a couple of coats of plaster! No where near as effective as a double brick wall.

Typically just insulating between the rafters is considered insufficient (even with modern PIR), you need to also insulate on top of the rafters, provided you can afford to lose the space of course. When insulating between rafters you need to leave a 50mm gap if you have the old style black bitumen felt and a 20mm gap (I think, don't quote me on this) when you have the modern breathable felt.

You can take either approach here: breathable or non-breathable.

Breathable would be something like Steicoflex wood fibre or sheeps wool between the rafters (with sufficient gap) - wood fibre board on top of the rafters - and a breathable plasterboard over that (wood wool board?) - lime plaster finish.

Non-breathable might be PIR board between and on top of rafters - standard plasterboard over that - gypsum finish. When going non-breathable you have to consider the fact your attempting whats called a 'warm roof' installation. This means no warm, moist air in the room can be allowed to pass through the insullation from inside to out, because when it comes into contact with the cold side of the insulation (PIR) there's a chance it will condense and soak the timbers. So all gaps must be filled and taped, and all joints , bridges, fixings must be taped.

I went for a hybrid approach - 40mm Steicoflex wood fibre between the rafters and 100mm PIR on top of the rafters, plasterboard, and Pro Clima Tescon tape over all joints, etc.

 

[NecessaryWing]

@Lacan07 thanks for such a detailed response. We have wooden boards across rafters as per pics. First time I’ve been up there since they did insulation; any idea why they have randomly put a bit with extra insulation rolled up against the rafters (circled in red)? I would have thought that would block it up there and pose a risk for condensation. Most of the wood feels dry to touch and we do have a few roof vents up there.

 

[Cubist]

It occurs to me that simple ignorance may be the reason for the roll of insulation on that side of the roof. Quite possibly the installers noticed a draught from that side and thought they were doing you a favour. Simple enough mistake but worth further examination to see if an equally simple remedy is needed.