Research in energy efficiency incentives

[fernicarry]

Thanks, I will have a look at Green Build Forum, yes the ventilation (to remove moisture) issue is a big one to solve as we make builds more airtight, including period ones, ideally an MVHR unit is a good solution, even in a period property it can work, or trickle vents in windows, or a dehumidifier in the winter (running overnight on off peak tariff). Insulating beneath floorboards can be quite disruptive, however, it can really help with draught proofing between and around the boards, especially if they are exposed??

Need to differentiate between air tightness and insulation. When starting from a very low bar like many traditionally built buildings the former is way more significant than the latter. You can insulate to any depth you like, but if the wind is just whistling around it then you're wasting your time.

And for that reason I really need to get on with putting a breather membrane under my floor boards. Its scary the amount of daylight you can see from below when looking up through the gaps. That was planned for this summer, but I'm still finishing off all the other summer jobs that overran.

The HR part of MVHR is a non-starter unless you have very good air tightness. It relies on the air flow out being balanced by the same air flow back in through the unit itself. This doesn't happen when you have other ways for air to come back in.

The V part is still very desirable and necessary and can be M if you wish. I have a 3 terminal central extractor in the loft that extracts from the kitchen and two bathrooms and exhausts through the roof. It really cuts down on condensation and keeps those rooms fresh.

 

[BlueTed]

The future protection of my property and its heritage are far more important to me than warmth and energy efficiency. I bought an old house knowing it was built to different specifications than houses are built now and in my opinion there are pros and cons to both types. However, I have no intention of applying modern building materials/requirements onto a house that has been standing happily for 250 years. So far, all the problems I’ve resolved with the house have been due to modern and inappropriate materials being used.

I am installing what a lot of people want to remove! Part of the house was double glazed and the windows look awful. I am replacing them with single glazed casements as they would have been. Thick curtains will be my solution.

The SPAB has some interesting information and studies relating to energy efficiency on their website.

 

[Lacan07]

The future protection of my property and its heritage are far more important to me than warmth and energy efficiency. I bought an old house knowing it was built to different specifications than houses are built now and in my opinion there are pros and cons to both types. However, I have no intention of applying modern building materials/requirements onto a house that has been standing happily for 250 years. So far, all the problems I’ve resolved with the house have been due to modern and inappropriate materials being used.

I am installing what a lot of people want to remove! Part of the house was double glazed and the windows look awful. I am replacing them with single glazed casements as they would have been. Thick curtains will be my solution.

The SPAB has some interesting information and studies relating to energy efficiency on their website.

There are people over on the Green Build Forum that would have you hung, drawn and quartered for removing that double glazing. Some of them believe all Grade 2 listed buildings should be demolished or left abandoned.

 

[Robin B]

Hi all, thanks for your replies to my original post, I've created an online questionnaire to capture wider thoughts on the subjects of - incentives/ EPC's/ barriers to retrofit/ green value premium/ energy efficiency, etc.. its slightly more generic than our discussion here and relevant to all types of residential property including period buildings, if you have any time please have a look at it, it should take about 10 mins to complete...

https://forms.office.com/r/L8ETuQpSLx

If you leave your email address at the end I can share a summary of the results.
Thanks, cheers.

 

[TudorCottage]

I’ve closed gaps around the windows with oakum and lime filler and put a thermal curtain up at the front door (reminds me of my Nan’s house back in the 60’s) But that’s about it. I’m contemplating using sheepswool insulation between floors as most of the draughts seem to come from upstairs.

I think you just have to accept that these old houses will let cold air through the walls in winter. The fitted wardrobe in the main bedroom sits on an outside wall, the back of the wardrobe being the outside wall. When you take clothes to put on they are freezing. At first I thought they were damp, but they are just very cold.

I take comfort from the fact that as the air moves so freely around the cottage, it means it is breathing and perhaps over the years the correct materials have been used when renovating.

Although putting on a shirt that feels like it’s been in the freezer takes some getting used to

#I did add a quote from the previous page that hasn’t been attached, just in case this seems like double Dutch!!

 

[RBailey]

Hi all, thanks for your replies to my original post, I've created an online questionnaire to capture wider thoughts on the subjects of - incentives/ EPC's/ barriers to retrofit/ green value premium/ energy efficiency, etc.. its slightly more generic than our discussion here and relevant to all types of residential property including period buildings, if you have any time please have a look at it, it should take about 10 mins to complete...

https://forms.office.com/r/L8ETuQpSLx

If you leave your email address at the end I can share a summary of the results.
Thanks, cheers.

Done, good luck.

 

[Robin B]

Done, good luck.

Great, many thanks for the responses Richard, cheers.

 

[mardinor]

The beauty of everyday living with period features and joy of fresh air from ventilation will always outweigh any financial advantage of energy efficiency, for me. I have no interest in saving the planet if it means living in a hermetically sealed, open plan ‘space’. Better we perish with style.

 

[wobs]

There is plenty of evidence that energy efficiency does not save the planet, owing to Jevons Paradox. Bascially, the more efficient we become, the more energy we consume as a society. So we save on lighting or heating, and spend teh money else where, or have the heating on more, or leave more lights on.

Obviously, with the increasing energy costs, energy effieicny makes more financial sense than it used to.

In terms of saving the planet, I am more in favour of allowing solar panels (or some other reneable energy) in conservation areas than fitting plastic windows in said houses. The former is reversable, and far more benefitial to the environment.

 

[Robin B]

The beauty of everyday living with period features and joy of fresh air from ventilation will always outweigh any financial advantage of energy efficiency, for me. I have no interest in saving the planet if it means living in a hermetically sealed, open plan ‘space’. Better we perish with style.

Yes absolutely if you have period features then they should be fully appreciated, however, I think its possible to do both with the right approach and no need for 'open plan' etc, the level of energy efficiency achieved may not be as much as with a modern property but there's still things that can be done that don't compromise the period style but do save money on bills and make the indoor environment more comfortable. Finding the right trades with experience and knowledge is key though!

 

[Robin B]

There is plenty of evidence that energy efficiency does not save the planet, owing to Jevons Paradox. Bascially, the more efficient we become, the more energy we consume as a society. So we save on lighting or heating, and spend teh money else where, or have the heating on more, or leave more lights on.

Obviously, with the increasing energy costs, energy effieicny makes more financial sense than it used to.

In terms of saving the planet, I am more in favour of allowing solar panels (or some other reneable energy) in conservation areas than fitting plastic windows in said houses. The former is reversable, and far more benefitial to the environment.

Yes thats true, for some when their home becomes energy efficient they end up using a bit more energy because they can now have the warm environment they didn't have before but for less cost, they key is that the retrofit should be extensive and effective enough to still have a benefit beyond the additional consumption.

yes essentially as a country we need to use a lot less energy and then the energy we do use must come from renewable sources as much as poss, reduce fossil fuels as much as poss, thats it, job done, easy!! ;o)

 

[philpjuk100]

Renewables? We had a trip out in the car today as its warmer in there than the house and passed a huge wind farm that was stationary (no wind) and the big solar farm by the A1 cannot have been doing a lot in the mist but the radiators on Staythorpe gas-fired power station were all steaming nicely.

 

[wobs]

Yes thats true, for some when their home becomes energy efficient they end up using a bit more energy because they can now have the warm environment they didn't have before but for less cost, they key is that the retrofit should be extensive and effective enough to still have a benefit beyond the additional consumption.

yes essentially as a country we need to use a lot less energy and then the energy we do use must come from renewable sources as much as poss, reduce fossil fuels as much as poss, thats it, job done, easy!! ;o)

This will not prevent Jevons Paradox, as the money will help to generate more economic growth either way without some kind of control such as carbon tax. If you spend lots on energy efficiency so that you are skint at the end, you made the companies richer, which is good for the economy. If you do it and save money, you spend it on other things (eg. holiday abroad or bought something with a carbon footprint). all these things help to generate economic growth. If you put the money in the bank, the bank will likely lend it to someone to again increase economic.

When we have economic growth, we see a rise on emissions. Its only if we decarbonise the system that we live (worldwide) that we'll really make a difference. Green growth is another subject beyond this post, but in a nut sheel, energy efficiency is a real risk. Renewables (and nuclear energy) are the way forward.

 

[BlueTed]

There are people over on the Green Build Forum that would have you hung, drawn and quartered for removing that double glazing. Some of them believe all Grade 2 listed buildings should be demolished or left abandoned.

They will have a hard fight getting past me! They can live in their modern eco designed home and I will continue to live in and care for my historic home and leave it in the best condition I can for future owners

 

[Robin B]

This will not prevent Jevons Paradox, as the money will help to generate more economic growth either way without some kind of control such as carbon tax. If you spend lots on energy efficiency so that you are skint at the end, you made the companies richer, which is good for the economy. If you do it and save money, you spend it on other things (eg. holiday abroad or bought something with a carbon footprint). all these things help to generate economic growth. If you put the money in the bank, the bank will likely lend it to someone to again increase economic.

When we have economic growth, we see a rise on emissions. Its only if we decarbonise the system that we live (worldwide) that we'll really make a difference. Green growth is another subject beyond this post, but in a nut sheel, energy efficiency is a real risk. Renewables (and nuclear energy) are the way forward.

Whereas at the moment we are making the oil, gas, energy companies richer through elevated prices, from research the general consensus is that home owners would rather spend money on making their homes more energy efficient that give the money to the energy companies, so the money is just being transferred from one recipient to another, however, in doing so home owners will save money on bills in the short to medium term, but also future proof themselves in the longer term against any further energy price rises, so in effect (unless they move house) the benefit is permanent. In fuel poverty situations the money saved will most likely be used on food and other essentials (rather than going to a food bank), for the wider majority the money saved could be spent in other areas that boost economic activity, however (as you say) if we decarbonise our energy supply that economic activity will not lead to additional emissions. The key to wider and the quickest decarbonising though is energy efficiency (not just homes but all activities) as the capacity of renewables is unlikely to reach our current energy consumption levels any time soon, so we have to bring our overall energy demand down whilst also increasing renewable generation capacity to meet that reduced demand at some point in the future. Only by doing both activities (demand reduction and renewables increase) at once can we reduce carbon emissions as quickly as possible to minimise further global warming. If we just wait until renewables to reach our current energy demand level it will take much longer resulting in higher emissions overall. Making our homes more energy efficient play a small part in this whole picture. Apologies, this has strayed a bit from the period property conversation!! ;o)

 

[NecessaryWing]

Very interesting discussion to read. I have only recently joined the forum. I’m very much for more efficiency in homes but I also love old period properties.

I live in a Georgian cottage built in the early 1800s. I would love to make it more energy efficient but as other have pointed out there is no point in doing any of these that change the character of the property. Moreover, some things just can’t be done at all. I wanted to put solar panels on our house but the conservation officer said no chance.

Correct me if wrong but the UK has one of the highest percentages in terms of number of period properties with solid walls. So I see the problem it faces but I don’t have many suggestions. It is possible for some upgrades to be made but these are just way too costly. The best thing to do currently is install a heat pump but for that you need excellent insulation that period homes just don’t have.

The next step would be to insulate period homes to a level that could run something like a heat pump but the cost of something like this is just unreal.

Our go to period property tradesman is a lime plasterer/render by trade but does all sorts like limecrete floors, cellar conversions etc. I asked him what I could do about insulating a period home like ours and he said there is a solution but the cost would be just insane. He showed me some Ty-Mawr internal wall insulation that’s breathable and could then be lime plastered over. If you do this to all the inside walls then you might be able to run a heat pump. The cost of this and the cost of the heat pump together would be astronomical not to mention it would change the recess of windows and make the rooms smaller.

There has been recent government grants as of this year to help with stuff like this but only for homes in tax band D or lower.

Also, as others have mentioned you don’t want to change the character of the house otherwise what’s the point in buying such houses.

 

[paulc]

Our go to period property tradesman is a lime plasterer/render by trade but does all sorts like limecrete floors, cellar conversions etc. I asked him what I could do about insulating a period home like ours and he said there is a solution but the cost would be just insane. He showed me some Ty-Mawr internal wall insulation that’s breathable and could then be lime plastered over. If you do this to all the inside walls then you might be able to run a heat pump. The cost of this and the cost of the heat pump together would be astronomical not to mention it would change the recess of windows and make the rooms smaller.

Just had a quick look at the price of woodfibre boards from Mike Wye - The prices, although a little higher than Celotex PUR boards, are not outlandishly more expensive. Maybe 15% or so based on list prices. Yes, you lose a bit of floor space when insulating internally, but 80-120mm isn't going to make a huge difference in most rooms. The extra depth on the window & door reveals could add to the character of the property.

 

[Lacan07]

Just had a quick look at the price of woodfibre boards from Mike Wye - The prices, although a little higher than Celotex PUR boards, are not outlandishly more expensive. Maybe 15% or so based on list prices. Yes, you lose a bit of floor space when insulating internally, but 80-120mm isn't going to make a huge difference in most rooms. The extra depth on the window & door reveals could add to the character of the property.

You beat me to the punch, wood fibre isn't that expensive considering.

The costs are further reduced if you've already got a flat lime walls / base to secure it to and then obviously its a 2 coat lime finish with mesh in-between. I do wish the government grants would accommodate the competent DIY'er as well as improved installers.

 

[NecessaryWing]

Just had a quick look at the price of woodfibre boards from Mike Wye - The prices, although a little higher than Celotex PUR boards, are not outlandishly more expensive. Maybe 15% or so based on list prices. Yes, you lose a bit of floor space when insulating internally, but 80-120mm isn't going to make a huge difference in most rooms. The extra depth on the window & door reveals could add to the character of the property.

Yeh I mean we nearly went for it on a few bedroom walls we had done recently but the rad on one of the walls had the pipes on skirting and didn’t fancy the plumbing bill on top.

I think to do that on all your walls would still be a large cost that a lot are unwilling to do.

Interesting about adding character. You think it would compliment a period property to add extra depth to a window? 100mm+ is quite a bit of extra depth though.

If I have recently had these walls done (attached) in the standard base coat, skim coat etc in Ty-Mawr fat lime. Do you think the insulation could still go straight onto that if I later chose to? The 0.3 U value they boast is tempting for sure compared to 2.5 for our solid walls. I guess you could get away with just adding the insulation to the external facing walls only?

 

[Lacan07]

Yeh I mean we nearly went for it on a few bedroom walls we had done recently but the rad on one of the walls had the pipes on skirting and didn’t fancy the plumbing bill on top.

I think to do that on all your walls would still be a large cost that a lot are unwilling to do.

Interesting about adding character. You think it would compliment a period property to add extra depth to a window? 100mm+ is quite a bit of extra depth though.

If I have recently had these walls done (attached) in the standard base coat, skim coat etc in Ty-Mawr fat lime. Do you think the insulation could still go straight onto that if I later chose to? The 0.3 U value they boast is tempting for sure compared to 2.5 for our solid walls. I guess you could get away with just adding the insulation to the external facing walls only?

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Yes, you could attach fibre board to those walls at a later date, you just need a fairly flat, (and obviously breathable), surface. It's best not to have too many air gaps behind the board when in place, but the 40 - 60mm thickness wood fibre board does have a bit of 'flex' which helps. Most people only do it on the external facing walls anyway.

Your walls are looking good!