Hi, I’m a MSc Green Building student at the Centre for Alternative Technology and University of East London, writing my thesis on homeowner incentives to upgrade energy efficiency, eg. a property value green premium. I'd be interested to hear views from owners and active buyers on this, please drop me a message and I can share more details, as a ‘thank you’ I would be pleased to share a summary of the results. Thank you.
- Thread starter Robin B
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Feltwell
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The problem for a lot of posters on this forum Robin will be the conflict between the originality and character of old houses, which is often exactly what they are bought for, and the intrusiveness on those of energy efficiency upgrades. Like many here, I will make as many upgrades as I can but not if they compromise the character of the house.
My house is a pretty typical late Victorian, solid brick wall, with sash windows - with no insulation at all when I bought it, untouched since it was built.
Since then I've insulated the roof as best as the house design allows (it has attic rooms, no loft) whilst replacing the roof covering. I've replaced the old gas boiler with a new high efficiency one, and put in a room-specific control system. I've insulated under the ground floor suspended wooden floors, but will not do anything with the solid floors with original tiles on. I've refurbished the sash windows and put in modern draft proofing seals, as that is very unobtrusive. Likewise external doors have been draft proofed.
I've experimented with secondary glazing and have some more to try, but so far cannot find anything that is both practical to use and unobtrusive for my windows.
I won't be:-
It's all case-by-case. If this place had been gutted internally and lost it's cornices, skirtings, architraves etc already then I'd have no problem with looking at appropriate internal solid wall insulation as part of a refurb.
It's just the limitations of old houses - but, given the amount of embodied energy required to build a house, this one has lasted 130 years already and with the care I've given it will be around for easily another century, probably more. The modern housing estates nearby, the construction quality is poor and I doubt very much that they will last anywhere near as long without substantial rebuilding.
It's like the windows - most of mine are original, will be repaired by me and can be repaired again in future, with minimal materials. The modern houses will have the entire frames replaced several times.
My house is a pretty typical late Victorian, solid brick wall, with sash windows - with no insulation at all when I bought it, untouched since it was built.
Since then I've insulated the roof as best as the house design allows (it has attic rooms, no loft) whilst replacing the roof covering. I've replaced the old gas boiler with a new high efficiency one, and put in a room-specific control system. I've insulated under the ground floor suspended wooden floors, but will not do anything with the solid floors with original tiles on. I've refurbished the sash windows and put in modern draft proofing seals, as that is very unobtrusive. Likewise external doors have been draft proofed.
I've experimented with secondary glazing and have some more to try, but so far cannot find anything that is both practical to use and unobtrusive for my windows.
I won't be:-
- Changing the sashes to double glazing or replacing windows, aside from one that is non-original. I have altered some original bathroom casement windows to take double glazed units, as that could be done without changing their aesthetic.
- Looking at fitting an air or ground source heat pump, this place wouldn't work well with those
- Fitting any kind of internal or external solid wall insulation.
It's all case-by-case. If this place had been gutted internally and lost it's cornices, skirtings, architraves etc already then I'd have no problem with looking at appropriate internal solid wall insulation as part of a refurb.
It's just the limitations of old houses - but, given the amount of embodied energy required to build a house, this one has lasted 130 years already and with the care I've given it will be around for easily another century, probably more. The modern housing estates nearby, the construction quality is poor and I doubt very much that they will last anywhere near as long without substantial rebuilding.
It's like the windows - most of mine are original, will be repaired by me and can be repaired again in future, with minimal materials. The modern houses will have the entire frames replaced several times.
Lacan07
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Hi Robin,
Have you visited the Green Build Forum?
www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk
They're pretty fanatical and knowledgeable about the subject on there.
I think there is also an issue surrounding the purpose of an old house, solid wall houses were designed to breathe and ventilation was an important part of that, usually via the chimney stacks. Modern life has introduced more moisture into the home in the midst of a drive to reduce drafts and improve heat loss which puts even more pressure on the old houses. My house had zero inflation so I'll be addressing this in the loft and through IWI. I won't be insulating beneath the ground floorboards however which many people do and seems to divide opinion.
Have you visited the Green Build Forum?
All Discussions
This forum is used by green building professionals, architects, builders, developers and green building owners to discuss all subjects related to green building.
They're pretty fanatical and knowledgeable about the subject on there.
I think there is also an issue surrounding the purpose of an old house, solid wall houses were designed to breathe and ventilation was an important part of that, usually via the chimney stacks. Modern life has introduced more moisture into the home in the midst of a drive to reduce drafts and improve heat loss which puts even more pressure on the old houses. My house had zero inflation so I'll be addressing this in the loft and through IWI. I won't be insulating beneath the ground floorboards however which many people do and seems to divide opinion.
CliffordPope
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"solid wall houses were designed to breathe"
Were they? I'm not so sure they were designed at all, just built in the way they had always been built.
Were they? I'm not so sure they were designed at all, just built in the way they had always been built.
Or if you dig under the finish on my house, you'd think it was just thrown up...
As to the OP's key query of incentives, short answer is there are none beyond the current (and rising) cost of energy. Whilst successive governments have announced "schemes" to improve homes over the years, the majority have failed to deliver cost effective results. For example, the Green Deal that ran from 2012-15 has cost the home owner an absolute fortune, and will continue to do so for a long time to come. The premise was the loan taken out to fund improvements would be paid back via savings on energy. Two main problems - The contractors were overcharging (and in many cases, doing a poor quality job), and the projected savings were wildly optimistic.
The next incarnation of the Green Deal was only open to homes that did not have double glazing, and was so poorly (mis)managed that it ended sooner than planned without delivering.
There are currently a number of Warm Home grants available funded by central government and being delivered by local councils. The qualifying criteria for these grants is pretty stringent, and few people will actually benefit. The total amount of money available is pretty small, and it is not going to make much of a dent in the problem - It is little more than political point scoring in my opinion.
For my part, I have replaced the doors and very badly fitted windows which have cut out a vast majority of the cold draughts. This has improved the quality of life as well as cutting down on heating costs. Slowly insulating the walls on the upper half of the property from the inside. This has made the rooms that have been done much easier to heat and greatly reduced problems with condensation. By the time I've finished, material costs should be under £500, and doing the work myself, there is no labour costs to include. If I had used one of these government Green Deal schemes, I would imagine the bill would have been in the £10-15K range. A huge disincentive !
In terms of improving the value of the property, I doubt the work I have done will make much of a difference. Might make it easier to sell, but that is of little concern to me. Improving the quality of life coupled with reduced heating bills are the driving factors. That said, my annual heating bill is pretty low already, so there isn't much of a saving to be had on that front (may be £150 per annum).
LadyArowana
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You can incentivise me all you want to increase the energy efficiency of our G2 money pit, but unfortunately the Conservation Officer isn’t going to share that enthusiasm. Luckily they don’t insist I wear a regency dress so fleecy onesie, thermals and huge dressing gown it is.
Feltwell
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You want one of these LadyA....
https://theoodie.co.uk/collections/products/products/elephant-oodie
I got my (permanently cold) daughter the sloth one, she loves it! They are very well made and really warm, and enormous - 5'8" daughter can curl up inside hers, no bother.
Cubist
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Nuff with the elephants, please!
I've got the WWF after me now because Tigers pal Giraffe told em I was hunting them.
I've got the WWF after me now because Tigers pal Giraffe told em I was hunting them.
LadyArowana
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But you just can’t have too many elephants! And I love the Oodie
TudorCottage
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There’s no doubt modern day insulation and building techniques have made houses more efficient.
Our cottage is testament to that.
The original building dates back 500 years, the first extension 40 years and the most recent extension 10 years. Both extensions have cavity walls, a damp course and wooden framed double glazing. The old part has none of these.
The thermostat for the underfloor heating in the old part is set to 21 degrees and never feels particularly warm, whilst the newer parts have the thermostat set to 16 degrees and are always toasty.
Whilst I knew this would be the case, the extremes have taken me by surprise.
Our cottage is testament to that.
The original building dates back 500 years, the first extension 40 years and the most recent extension 10 years. Both extensions have cavity walls, a damp course and wooden framed double glazing. The old part has none of these.
The thermostat for the underfloor heating in the old part is set to 21 degrees and never feels particularly warm, whilst the newer parts have the thermostat set to 16 degrees and are always toasty.
Whilst I knew this would be the case, the extremes have taken me by surprise.
Lacan07
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Well, probably best not take the word 'designed' too literally.
Feltwell
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Treat yourself LadyA. They are ridiculous, but also ridiculously warm & comfy, and that is female feedback! Miss Feltwell is 5'8", very slender, and always cold. Her Dad is 6'2" and not even remotely slender, in fact "brick outhouse" is the polite description. It's big even on me. Miss Feltwell is away at university, where she lives in a modern and very warm student flat, so when she returns to Feltwell Towers the cold hits her more than ever, and the Oodie comes into it's own.
Zebra
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I am lucky in that I was able to fit insulated floor slabs, external wall insulation and new double glazed (timber) windows to an (unlisted) 17th century cottage. This is because it had been so comprehensively "modernised" in the preceding decades that doing so did not damage its period character.
As for incentives, none were considered beyond my own commitment to rescue the poor old place and make it liveable for myself and for the future. In fact I rather eschew any external influence, preferring to keep control myself. I wouldn't let any government-funded tradespeople near the place, even if their efforts were free, because I wouldn't trust them to have the house's best interests at heart.
Not that I don't think green incentives are a good thing, but as stated in previous replies, when it comes to older houses there's a set of objectives at heart to do with protecting the uniqueness and functionality of the construction, which may debar some of the methods which might be applied elsewhere.
As for incentives, none were considered beyond my own commitment to rescue the poor old place and make it liveable for myself and for the future. In fact I rather eschew any external influence, preferring to keep control myself. I wouldn't let any government-funded tradespeople near the place, even if their efforts were free, because I wouldn't trust them to have the house's best interests at heart.
Not that I don't think green incentives are a good thing, but as stated in previous replies, when it comes to older houses there's a set of objectives at heart to do with protecting the uniqueness and functionality of the construction, which may debar some of the methods which might be applied elsewhere.
The balance between preserving old houses and their character versus energy improvements is a difficult one.
I fear a lot of the current schemes and incentives lead more towards quick in appropriate fixes, uPVC and spray foam by cowboys.
There is some stuff that can be achieved any most here try but even what would be considered normal for most house such as cavity wall and loft insulation don't readily suit as there are no cavity walls and old roofs need to be very breathable due to lack of felt and old timbers.
Feel free to reach out if you want more information (questionnaires, details of what I have done, or even to talk).
I'm always happy to help out a student, i still remember (just) the days of having to do my dissertation.
I fear a lot of the current schemes and incentives lead more towards quick in appropriate fixes, uPVC and spray foam by cowboys.
There is some stuff that can be achieved any most here try but even what would be considered normal for most house such as cavity wall and loft insulation don't readily suit as there are no cavity walls and old roofs need to be very breathable due to lack of felt and old timbers.
Feel free to reach out if you want more information (questionnaires, details of what I have done, or even to talk).
I'm always happy to help out a student, i still remember (just) the days of having to do my dissertation.
Hi, thanks for your interesting insights into your own property, I feel there's a difficult balance to strike between energy efficiency and preserving the original features/fabric of a period building, I have the same dilemma in my own C18th cottage in Somerset, however, unfortunately there is a reality that energy prices are continuing to rise, can you imagine a situation where you may go back a re-visit those aspects that you won't be changing above, such as if energy becomes financially unaffordable, or the value of your property would suffer vs other more energy efficient period properties (all other aspects being equal), I'm interested to know what, in theory, may be a tipping point to install more energy efficiency measures?
Thanks, I will have a look at Green Build Forum, yes the ventilation (to remove moisture) issue is a big one to solve as we make builds more airtight, including period ones, ideally an MVHR unit is a good solution, even in a period property it can work, or trickle vents in windows, or a dehumidifier in the winter (running overnight on off peak tariff). Insulating beneath floorboards can be quite disruptive, however, it can really help with draught proofing between and around the boards, especially if they are exposed??Hi Robin,
Have you visited the Green Build Forum?
All Discussions
This forum is used by green building professionals, architects, builders, developers and green building owners to discuss all subjects related to green building.
They're pretty fanatical and knowledgeable about the subject on there.
I think there is also an issue surrounding the purpose of an old house, solid wall houses were designed to breathe and ventilation was an important part of that, usually via the chimney stacks. Modern life has introduced more moisture into the home in the midst of a drive to reduce drafts and improve heat loss which puts even more pressure on the old houses. My house had zero inflation so I'll be addressing this in the loft and through IWI. I won't be insulating beneath the ground floorboards however which many people do and seems to divide opinion.
Hi, thanks for your thoughts, very interesting, interesting that improving thermal comfort and reducing bills were the motivators, broadly speaking many people do not 'get' the thermal comfort/quality of life bit! Your heating bill sounds pretty low, so if it made your property easier to sell I am guessing that is more of an accidental benefit rather than an intentional one?
Lacan07
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My problem with insulating beneath floorboards is whatever you use will inevitably get wet.
Yes, MVHR is definitely the way to go. I have no interest in trickle vents, etc and the like. A full house MVHR system is expense and disruptive but if you have an open plan space like I do the single units are relatively cheap and easy to install.
Have you done any energy efficiency upgrading on the old part?
Hi, yes that is the danger that many trades people don't understand how to treat period properties, even surveyors recommending inappropriate tanking, etc! this is just one of the many barriers to making energy efficiency upgrades - finding a trustworthy trades person, or, in many peoples cases knowing what to do yourself, thanks for your offer of help, I'm going to be posting a link to an online questionnaire on here later, from the posts here there so much good insight to capture!! Cheers.