Replacement 'Period' Window Glass.

[Johnboy]

Hi. Hello

My names John and I am new to this board, new to any sort of forum for that matter! I have purchased a period property in Wales with a view to renovating it and eventually retiring there (I have a Welsh family connection so I am pleased to say that I have been accepted by the locals with open arms).
It is currently in the hands of a competent if a little 'over confident' local builder.
One job that will need to be done quite soon is to replace a number of the original sash window panes. I am therefore looking for a source of 'period' window glass as I am told, and have read that as the property is listed original glass must be used where possible. I have googled, e-bayed and checked numerous directory style web-sites but so far my results are less than satisfactory. I am hoping that someone on this board will be able to point me in the right direction?

 

[Baron de Gynes]

Among the archives of this esteemed website, I found this article on Plain Glazingwhich may give you some advice about the replacement of the glass panes. I woudl suggest that unless the glass is broken, that it would be best not to mess with it too much.

Be mindful, as ever, that anything involved with period properties, as ever, is likely to be expensive. Hand blown and/or rolled panes will be rather costly.

However, good luck, and welcome!

 

[stephenh]

Hello JB - welcome to the forum and all that.

If you have lots of money (!) then search the web for 'Crown glass'

if you have not lots, but a fair bit then try :

http://www.londoncrownglass.co.uk/London_Crown_Glass/Period_Prices.html

If , like the rest of us, you have neither of the above then go round your local glaziers ( best out in the country) and ask for
'3mm horticultural glass' and see if they will let you look through their stock and pick the sheets with most striations.
i have been very impressed with this in the past. It gives that twinkle that we are all looking for........

Good luck

 

[Penners]

Welcome, John.

As Stephen has suggested, I have known people to use horticultural glass in their windows, in order to simulate old cylinder glass.

This is, of course, a disgraceful thing to do, because it's actually against regulations to use 3mm glass in a domestic window. I've even heard that these unscrupulous people don't mention to the glazier who cuts and supplies the glass the fact that they're planning to use it in a window, in case he refuses to supply it on that basis. I believe they often mention that it's for a cold frame, or some such garden structure.

Some people, eh? :roll:

One job that will need to be done quite soon is to replace a number of the original sash window panes. I am therefore looking for a source of 'period' window glass as I am told, and have read that as the property is listed original glass must be used where possible.

By the way, I don't think anyone is going to force you to use glass that looks old. The flaw in your statement above is that - if you're replacing a broken piece of glass, then it stands to reason that you haven't got "original" glass to replace it with. New "wobbly" glass is not original - it's just wobbly!

But if you want wobbly glass, I hope you'll take heed of what I've said above.

 

[d49xc]

Well, I never knew that you are not allowed to use 3mm glass in properties anymore.

Last year I needed to do some repairs to a previous bodged repaired leaded light panel and simply went in to a glass merchant and asked for 3mm float...and it was done in 2 mins and without any query at all about what it was for/why etc.

 

[Johnboy]

Many thanks for the warm welcome and the advice/links offered. I had never thought about horticultural glass! I will look locally for a source and give it a go. The Londoncrownglass website lists the type of glass I was looking for but the £108 per square metre they are quoting would be better spent elsewhere!! After all, the list is endless...

 

[Keithj]

Likewise new to the forum - I found it last night when Googling for information about lime render. We're approaching the end of a major restoration of a pair of Grade 2 listed Tudor cottages, and have been on a very steep but interesting learning curve.

If it's listed, I'd suggest inviting the conservation officer to visit you, go through the concerns you have, and ask for his/her advice. It should be free (still), and by asking you get good advice, usually permission to do what you want to do, and most important you learn what you must not do. Otherwise, the CO can make you reinstate stuff you do that is wrong, and that can prove very expensive.

We had windows with rot in them - but they were double glazed (usually a no-no with Tudor properties). The CO agreed that since they were there when we bought the place, they may well have been there before it was listed so double glazing could stay. However, he asked that we repair rather than replace. We have a superbly skilled local carpenter/joiner who has repaired the frames - we can't even see the join. Once some of that had been done and our integrity verified, the CO became much more amenable and has given permission for some other work we wanted to do. He's definitely a useful ally.

If you are having extensive work dones on the place, and using a specialist firm, you may be able to get all the work VAT-free if you have a "Listed Building Consent" number. We're spending a bit over £100,000 on this place, almost all of it VAT-free.

 

[Johnboy]

Hi Keith, thanks for the reply. I am currently on one of those steep but interesting learning curves!
When we bought the cottage the couple living there had done some major work inside but no work at all to the exterior except to fit a huge satellite TV dish on the roof! The chap who owned it was a reasonble DIY'er but clearly not much thought had gone into the renovation. The property had been listed in 1985 with the original single glazed sash windows in place. Strangely the listing covers the complete front elevation including the windows, the roof and the original rear doorway, but no mention is made of the rear or end elevation?
I have since had a joiner friend of mine look at the sash windows as I cannot understand why there are no weights, cords, pulleys etc. in any of the windows and no sign that there ever has been? He is now self-employed but originally worked for a local building firm who specialised in renovation work. He told me that he had repaired a set similar to mine and the windows were held open by a pair of very old ceramic(?) lions with stepped backs?? I asked him to draw me a picture but so far no sign of it! If it ever arrives I will post it for posterity...

 

[Keithj]

I'm sure one of the resident COs can give a better answer, but my understanding is that while the building may be listed for one or another specific reason in one part of it (such as the front, or the roof), once it is listed then the whole of it is listed and needs consent for anything significant. Ours is listed for one feature (the upstairs inside) but we had to have LBC to fit a larger downstairs window while repairing some seriously bodged work.

We had a place on the Lleyn peninsula (Llithfaen) for some years. It had suffered about 150 years of neglect and needed a lot of TLC. Fortunately it wasn't listed and we could do most of the work ourselves. We got a lot of useful advice (and materials to carry out the advice) from Dop in Pwllheli.

 

[Penners]

while the building may be listed for one or another specific reason in one part of it (such as the front, or the roof), once it is listed then the whole of it is listed and needs consent for anything significant.

That's quite right. A listing covers the whole building and its curtilage, even if the reason for listing is just - say - a window.

And may I just fine-tune your excellent explanation of the VAT situation, Keith? You're quite correct that certain works on a listed building can be zero-rated, provided they have Listed Building Consent. The catch, however, is that they must be alterations. Repairs don't qualify (crazy, I know, but that's the way it is :roll: ). In order to be zero-rated you have to use a VAT-registered builder, and persuade him that it is permissable not to charge you VAT.

As many of us DIY-ers have discovered, you cannot do the work yourself and then reclaim the VAT that you've paid on materials. HMRC will not allow this.

 

[MatthewC]

In order to be zero-rated you have to use a VAT-registered builder, and persuade him that it is permissable not to charge you VAT.

Absolutely right but if, having obtained LBC, you need to "persuade" your builder not to charge the VAT on a alteration, then I would ask whether you have the right builder. In my experience, anyone (VAT registered) who has worked on old buildings is well aware of the VAT rules and needs no "persuasion".

The only real discussion will be on exactly where the "alteration" stops and where the "repair" starts. My house is having replacement of the entire water system from the rising main (repair?), a first time installation of central heating (alteration) and a gas boiler to replace the old immersion heater (alteration?).

And it really irks me that there is no way of reclaiming the VAT if you buy materials yourself or use a non-VAT registered contractor.

Matthew
http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/

 

[Penners]

if, having obtained LBC, you need to "persuade" your builder not to charge the VAT on a alteration, then I would ask whether you have the right builder. In my experience, anyone (VAT registered) who has worked on old buildings is well aware of the VAT rules and needs no "persuasion".

The only real discussion will be on exactly where the "alteration" stops and where the "repair" starts.

But that's the crux of it, Matthew. In my experience builders are quite cautious about borderline work. If they zero-rate you and HMRC then rule against that decision, they either have to come back to you for the VAT or pay it themselves.

 

[childrenanddogs]

The only real discussion will be on exactly where the "alteration" stops and where the "repair" starts. My house is having replacement of the entire water system from the rising main (repair?), a first time installation of central heating (alteration) and a gas boiler to replace the old immersion heater (alteration?).

Our Conservation Officer explained it to us as this - if it's needs LBC then it is zero rated, if it's anything else i.e. refurbishment or replacement, then it's not. Was a lot easier than trying to get my head around the HMRC booklet!

OP - do you definitely need new windows? We've just had all of our sash windows refurbished, which were in an awful state - the property hasn't even been lived in for 10 years. They were done by a local specialist, who has done the most amazing job on them. He's repaired, draught proofed, put new cords and weights in etc, and it was about a sixth of the price of having new ones done. Don't know if that's possible for you though?

Good luck with your project! Look forward to seeing some pictures.

 

[biffvernon]

Many thanks for the warm welcome and the advice/links offered. I had never thought about horticultural glass! I will look locally for a source and give it a go. The Londoncrownglass website lists the type of glass I was looking for but the £108 per square metre they are quoting would be better spent elsewhere!! After all, the list is endless...

What you really want is P1 from http://www.tatra-glass.co.uk/

It's a little cheaper than from the London Crown Glass company (which, of course, does not actually sell crown glass, because nobody knows how to make it any more), made in Poland, mouth blown cylinder glass, beautiful stuff. Yes you can probably get Russian made drawn and rolled glass sold as horticultural for about a quarter the price but it's not the same.

I cannot understand why there are no weights, cords, pulleys etc. in any of the windows and no sign that there ever has been?

Aye, the poor could not afford all that technical stuff. They just propped the sash up with a sick or a wedge. Quite common in small windows.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Biff, I saw a photograph of the beautiful casement window, made from oak, that you made for Angela and Shane yesterday. It is just gorgeous. The glass and the leaded sections would be just perfect for here I think.

 

[AMc]

if, having obtained LBC, you need to "persuade" your builder not to charge the VAT on a alteration, then I would ask whether you have the right builder. In my experience, anyone (VAT registered) who has worked on old buildings is well aware of the VAT rules and needs no "persuasion".

The only real discussion will be on exactly where the "alteration" stops and where the "repair" starts.

But that's the crux of it, Matthew. In my experience builders are quite cautious about borderline work. If they zero-rate you and HMRC then rule against that decision, they either have to come back to you for the VAT or pay it themselves.

The issue with variations in the rate of VAT for a business is that they bear the liability for the decision and see nothing in return as its a self certified tax.
If the builder applies the full rate and pays it to HMRC then they carry no risk at all nor see any financial benefit. If they apply a lower rate and are then assessed by HMRC and are deemed to have charged the wrong rate then they are obliged to pay the extra tax + potential penalties with very little chance of getting it back from the customer as technically its their mistake not the customers.

This is compounded in that the HMRC helpline can explain the guidance about the rules to you but are not permitted to make any definitive statements about what rate applies that they can be held accountable to e.g. you can't get them to say "this job is definitely 0% rated" or "this is definitely rated at 20%". They simply don't have that power.

My experience of the VAT rules was with a conversion which changed the number of dwellings. If you make it easy for your contractors to understand the guidance by highlighting the relevant sections and ensuring that you give them time to show them to their bookkeepers/accountants then I found most people were happy to accept my interpretation. I offered to pay any variation but don't think I actually gave anyone a written promise to that effect.

With a listed building I would expect a specialist builder to understand the regulations quite well and be honest about the application of the various rates but at the end of the day you need to work it out in advance so their bills and invoices are raised with the correct rates and everyone agrees what is covered at which rate.

 

[Keithj]

We are having extensive work done, and the specialist firm doing it is well aware of the rules. We are not being charged VAT.
They use the simple rule referred to above - if the work needs Listed Building Consent, then VAT does not need to be charged.

 

[Penners]

They use the simple rule referred to above - if the work needs Listed Building Consent, then VAT does not need to be charged.

That's fine - or would be if COs themselves had a clearly defined book of rules to follow, covering every eventuality. But they haven't, and such a thing would be impossible given the almost infinitely variable nature of listed buildings and of the work done to them.

So there's always the possibility that one CO will make a different subjective decision to another, thus affecting what does and does not need LBC.

This isn't a criticism of COs - it's an understandable and inevitable situation.

 

[Johnboy]

Lo and behold, a pair of lions head sash window props have appeared on e-bay. This must be what my joiner friend was talking about! For reference, this is the ID number. 310320676016

 

[JoceAndChris]

Just to say a big welcome to the new members in this thread - exciting projects, and we look forward to reading all the gory details.