Onto dining room - rewire before ceiling repair?

[Feltwell]

Oh God, I forgot to ask Ricky about his build. But how do you ask someone about their physique charmingly - especially when you've just told them they can stay the night !!!

Easy - "Ricky, would you like salad for dinner or a KFC family bucket?"

 

[Flyfisher]

Not sure what power it requires MdB.

What is the rating for each bulb? 20W? 50W?

It's a good point. The days of a single 60W bulb hanging from the centre of each ceiling seems to be long gone and lighting arrangements can be quite sophisticated these days. Not a problem if properly designed, of course, but when retrofitted to an old property that might have only have a single 5 amp lighting circuit then things can easily become overloaded.

If the wiring and fuses are all compliant then overloading shouldn't do any harm except cause the fuse to blow (inconvenient, but not inherently dangerous), but if our old wiring is anything to go by then some care is needed (even after replacing the wrongly-rated fuse wire and silver paper in the consumer unit!) - which is why I'm gradually upgrading the wiring and having new consumer units installed.

Joce, all you really need to know is that the fuse for your lighting circuit is 5 amps, which means 1200 watts or, for example, 20 x 60W lightbulbs. Just add up all your lightbulbs and if the answer is less than 1200 then all should be well. If you have more than one lighting circuit (more than one lighting fuse in the fusebox) then the above applies to each circuit.

 

[Pford75]

The discussion about circuit loads rather proves my point that even the addition of a single light may not be as simple as it seems. One light alone doesn't present a problem, but when this is repeated in several rooms over the course of a project, the circuit loads can become too much.

Of course, if this neccessitates further work, then it certainly becomes an issue.

FF - You are correct that the work simply needs to be certified..although you are lucky to find an electrician prepared to certify your work (is he charging?) Building Control will certify your electrical work, but they do levy a charge.

BTW - With 2 family members in real estate (one estate agent and one solicitor), both have mentioned Part P certifications holding up recent sales (it's become too much of a risk for solicitors to ignore and purchasers are beginning to insist on certificates - even if the vendor believes the work doesn't require certification)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thank you for all the wonderful and interesting contributions - I'm starting to see what you mean by the overloading of the circuit issue. The lighting hasn't been bought yet; I'd like this: http://www.christopherhyde.com/product_range.php?catrid=96&mcatiid=83&mcatid=29

I'll have to spend some time isolating lights on different circuits ( we have 3) and count up. Thanks for the advice. I can't imagine it will overload the circuit as there aren't many lights here.

 

[Flyfisher]

FF - You are correct that the work simply needs to be certified..although you are lucky to find an electrician prepared to certify your work (is he charging?)

I can't really comment on how hard it is to find an electrician who will certify the householder's own electrical works, except that the first one I asked was fine with it.

The situation here is that there is a fair bit of work for him to do anyway but he's happy for me to do the more straightforward things and then include that into the certification for the work that he's doing for me.

For example, I've got an old consumer unit feeding lots of old radial power circuits, each of which has been extended in a fairly ad hoc way and with the wiring (some of it rubber) often just fixed to the ceiling beams. I've been replacing much of this with a couple of new rings, bringing the new wiring back to the consumer unit but temporarily connecting it into the existing wiring with junction boxes.

The next job is to replace the entire consumer unit and connect the new wiring directly to its own circuit. The electrican will do that job then test and certify the entire subsystem. He's happy to have a fairly quick and simple job and I'm happy to save quite a bit of money by tackling the time-consuming fiddly bits of routing new cables etc.

 

[Flyfisher]

Thank you for all the wonderful and interesting contributions - I'm starting to see what you mean by the overloading of the circuit issue. The lighting hasn't been bought yet; I'd like this: http://www.christopherhyde.com/product_range.php?catrid=96&mcatiid=83&mcatid=29

Nice chandelier! I see it's rated at 6x60 watts = 360 watts. You might find that a bit bright but even if you end up using 6x40W = 240W then it's still good practice to ensure the wiring can support the maximum of 360 watts.

I'll have to spend some time isolating lights on different circuits ( we have 3) and count up. Thanks for the advice. I can't imagine it will overload the circuit as there aren't many lights here.

If your fusebox is anything like ours then there will be little (OK, nothing!) in the way of labels to show what fuse does what. So it's a very useful exercise to spend a little time isolating each circuit and going around the house making notes of which lights are fed from each fuse (as well as all the other fused circuits)

If you have three separate lighting circuits then I'd guess you'll be OK with your plans, but the above exercise will soon confirm things one way or the other. Just remember the "5 amp fuse = 1200 watts of lighting" rule and simply add up all your existing bulbs and planned new ones. No complicated electrical theory, just some basic arithmetic.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Colour scheme sounds good Joce, tweed curtains too, very appropriate !
Hopefully the woodchip will be all that comes off the ceiling!

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Just remember the "5 amp fuse = 1200 watts of lighting" rule and simply add up all your existing bulbs and planned new ones. No complicated electrical theory, just some basic arithmetic.

My incoming supply has a 100a fuse prior to the meter. Does that mean my max load is 24kW? And if I have 2x 13kW electric showers operating simultaneousy whilst SWMBO puts on the toaster and kettle, am I about to melt the house?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh God, I forgot to ask Ricky about his build. But how do you ask someone about their physique charmingly - especially when you've just told them they can stay the night !!!

Easy - "Ricky, would you like salad for dinner or a KFC family bucket?"

:lol: but I fear we'll never know if Ricky likes salad or KFC. Whilst £1000 to sort out a ceiling is probably reasonable, at the same time it means this work will be pushed back until after Christmas. ( we're having a 3k burglar alarm fitted in two weeks)

My poor brother is having to move into vile and squalid rented accommodation in order to get his boy in a good catchment area for school. I must be able to offer all the family a nice Christmas here with a jolly red dining room. So, back to DIY.

 

[philpjuk100]

[quote

My incoming supply has a 100a fuse prior to the meter. Does that mean my max load is 24kW? And if I have 2x 13kW electric showers operating simultaneousy whilst SWMBO puts on the toaster and kettle, am I about to melt the house?[/quote]

Do not blow the companys fuse they charge to replace it! or maybe you could prise the seal off with a penknife replace the fuse and refit the seal with a pair of pliers.OH NO disregard this its illegal! (my fuse was 60 amp and I have a welder in the workshop!)

 

[MdB]

My incoming supply has a 100a fuse prior to the meter. Does that mean my max load is 24kW? And if I have 2x 13kW electric showers operating simultaneousy whilst SWMBO puts on the toaster and kettle, am I about to melt the house?

You won't melt the house but you may blow the fuse.

House electrics makes the assumption that having everything on at once is unlikely and therefore uses cabling that is not capable of carrying the total combined current. The cables are protected by the fuses in the case that everything is switched on at once. This goes for individual circuits such as cookers and ring mains as well as the whole house.

It is worth noting that your 100A fuse is rated such that it guaranteed not to blow with 100A passing through it. A modern RCB can take something like an hour to trip with a 30% overload and 10 seconds to trip with a 400% overload. They therefore don't trip as fast as you might think. Wire fuses will be different but will have similar characteristics.

 

[Moo]

Browsing through that delicious lighting website a thought occurred to me:
If Chris wants a thoroughly masculine hunting-lodge room, why not go the whole hog and make it a bit Balmoral?
I can just see it - the red walls, with tartan tweed curtains, hunting trophies, the Chinoiserie (or similar) chandelier, and a pair of smallish wolfhounds dozing elegantly by the fire.....

 

[Penners]

I think there's plenty of support for a little chandelier.

I presume you'll want the ceiling rose and chandelier to be central to the room, Joce? If so, then - forgive me - "I think" might not be quite enough. Even if the joists are substantial enough (and remember that a plaster ceiling rose is likely to be pretty heavy, added to the weight of the chandelier), they might not be in the right place. So I suggest that you discuss this with The Mighty Ricky (who sounds a pretty versatile sort of chap) and ask him whether he thinks you'll need some noggins put in.

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: I promise I won't be spending any silly sums on chandeliers until the noggin situation has been assessed by a professional.

But, ooh! I think I'm going to be very lucky! Half an hour with the lightest of touches from a Stanley knife and a square metre of woodchip is removed. I think it's been on there a very long time, and wants to come down now. And what's underneath? Lime plaster, in good condition apart from one brown patch, and old distemper.

And Moo - he needs those wolfhounds - what a perfect completion to the room. One called Gelert.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Gosh, no, I'm wrong. The brown patch is paper. Under the woodchip is layer after layer of distemper, and under that is ancient brown paper. It looks like the ceiling was plastered and then immediately papered with lining. Necessary to remove this, I wonder? There's a very slight feeling of damp to it all.

 

[Flyfisher]

I was about to suggest that if you want the room ready for Christmas without replastering then why not just paint the ceiling woodchip as it stands and re-do it all later next year, but as you're started removing it then it's a bit late for that.

I don't think I'd worry too much about removing any lining paper; it will provide some binding for the underlying plaster and removing it may remove some plaster. With luck, removing the woodchip will leave a reasonably flat layer of lining paper that you can then paint as planned, allowing you to complete the remainer of the room for Christmas.

Of course, the downside to this approach is that plastering is a messy job and it's not ideal to replaster a ceiling in a newly decorated room, but I sympathise with the urge to get things ready for Christmas (only 14 weeks away - sorry! ).

 

[Penners]

you want the room ready for Christmas

Don't worry, it'll be ready for Christmas no matter how long it takes.

If you're able to remove the woodchip successfully without damaging anything underneath, then - best case - maybe you'll only need to put on an extra coat of two of distemper. Or, if you can get all the distemper off without any damage to the brown lining paper, ditto.

But all of that sounds pretty optimistic.

If the above isn't possible, then you have a (further) dilemma. As FF has suggested, removal of the brown lining paper risks pulling chunks of the underlying (or "abovelying"!) plaster off. If you can expose the brown paper without too much damage to it, and the ceiling in general seems to be fairly stable, you could consider papering over the brown paper with a smooth lining paper. Then you wouldn't need to replaster.

 

[LadyArowana]

I'd like this: http://www.christopherhyde.com/product_range.php?catrid=96&mcatiid=83&mcatid=29

I thought Chris was going to be allowed to choose :lol: , he will want wrought iron and antlers, but for the right price I can be persuaded to tell him no such thing exists............................

 

[JoceAndChris]

He would adore that! Shan't show him.

Thank you for your helpful thoughts gentlemen. A quarter of the woodchip's off, and as Penners thought, imagining pulling the woodchip off would leave a surface that did not require the attentions of a plasterer was optimistic. It looks like one of my cheesecakes pulled out of the oven too early, cracked and erupting. Leaks have undoubtedly occurred in the distant past. The appearance could at best be described as romantic, at worst, squalid. If we can't finance its appropriate fixing by Christmas, we may have to host Christmas in the breakfast room, as no-one wants blackened lime plaster and mouse droppings falling into their goose no matter how evocative it looks.

 

[LadyArowana]

He would adore that! Shan't show him.

I await your offer for my silence :lol:

The appearance could at best be described as romantic, at worst, squalid. If we can't finance its appropriate fixing by Christmas, we may have to host Christmas in the breakfast room, as no-one wants blackened lime plaster and mouse droppings falling into their goose no matter how evocative it looks.

Get the chandelier in and then all you need is a dust sheet and some creativity and nothing will fall into the food.