No more placcy?

[Flyfisher]

. . . stuffy old people who live in decrepit old houses.

Devils advocacy of course - I steadfastly avoid all your examples (with the occasional exception of over-amplified music, albeit not 'pop') but each to their own.

I just think that, before its possible to influence someone's life-style choices (assuming that's the objective), it's a good idea to understand the background to those choices in the first place. Rudeness, abuse and a 'holier than thou' approach achieves very little, or worse, can be counter-productive.

 

[Nemesis]

a 'holier than thou' approach achieves very little, or worse, can be counter-productive.

Well, well, at last you are realising it then!

8)

Oh and Manks - read the book I posted the link to - the chapter on the problems with placcy windows you may find useful.

Once installed they will need nothing whatsoever doing to them for at least 25 years. Maybe a good deal longer

In the immortal words of KM - I should be so lucky, lucky lucky lucky...

 

[Manks]

Oh and Manks - read the book I posted the link to - the chapter on the problems with placcy windows you may find useful.

I have read quite a few studies about wood vs plastic and it seems to me that one or other comes out best depending upon the bias of the writer.

The most independent ones I found, or at least those that most readily acknowledged the inherrent weakness of the input data, seemed to come down on the side of UPVC for the purposes of budget builds and refurbs.

Manks

 

[Flyfisher]

a 'holier than thou' approach achieves very little, or worse, can be counter-productive.

Well, well, at last you are realising it then!

Selective quotes also achieve very little.

I don't believe I was trying to influence people regarding their window choices. I was trying to understand them. There is a difference.

 

[Nemesis]

Well, as with all things, if cheap and nasty is what is wanted then cheap and nasty is what will be used.

The wider environmental implications of course some will ignore, unless there is legislation.

I would still read the book. It's very good, and you may begin to have some understanding of the problems with cheap uPVC windows.

As Matt says - some are part of the problem, and always will be.

 

[Nemesis]

Really Mike? I didn't think it was so difficult to understand.

But there you go.

I do enjoy it when you come over all holier than though, suck in your cheeks and make these sort of pronouncements.

I've managed to live six decades without being a good girl and don't intend to start now.

And as far as Devil's advocacy is concerned - it's none too subtle, I'd give it a rest, although it's amusing to watch sometimes we don't always have time to play. Or the inclination.

 

[Flyfisher]

Well, I'm pleased to be able to bring some small pleasure into your life.

I also suspect that your stance on change is echoed by all those uPVC wielding, fossil fuel burning and period property demolishing people.

Seems like we're all wasting our time.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh, I have many pleasures in my life, can't say you have much great effect on me one way or t'other. Not that important.

 

[Penners]

I've been out all day fitting Jacki's doors with their pretty windows. I'm really quite proud of it.

With very considerable justification. I really love the poplars.

Wherefore the "Penrose" window?

 

[Nemesis]

Clearly named after you - a thing of beauty and a joy forever?

 

[Penners]

It certainly matches the colour of my eyes.

 

[Nemesis]

:shock:



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(Pic courtesy of Biff International Enterprises PLC)


Oak - it does tend to last well, and doesn't even have to be painted.



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Some interesting reading here too:


http://clubplan.org/CMS/page.asp?org=1517&id=368

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml;jsessionid=GVJQK1EVWZ4TDQFIQMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/property/2004/10/23/pcleav23.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2005/02/12/pcleav12.xml



In my own house, the original wooden windows (not oak) seem to have lasted quite well. I think over 200 years is a decent time span. OK the sliding parts were replaced with two over two in about the 1870's, but apart from a coat of paint every few years can't say they take much looking after.

Of course many of the 'starter homes' as described by Manks possibly will have a similar lifespan to the windows he describes, so that's OK.

But the crappily lousy housing designs being built by so many is a whole new issue entirely. As indeed is the cheap and tacky makeover by small developers in order to maximise profit.

BTW Manks - when you took the placcy windows out of your house and replaced them with wood, where did the placcy ones go?

 

[biffvernon]

UPVC windows can be supplied and fitted in a starter house for about £200 per unit. Once installed they will need nothing whatsoever doing to them for at least 25 years. Maybe a good deal longer. Oak windows would cost what? £1000 per unit? Will they last five times longer?

Ah, I see the source of misconception. There can't be many places where you could supply and fit even a plastic window for £200. I really think you need to double that figure for anything meaningful. £1000 would buy a large oak window from me. Most of mine are a good bit less. And lasting five time longer - lets say 10 times longer and that's pretty conservative. No maintenance if you don't paint it.

Sorry David, it's Roger Penrose, famous for, amongst a great many other things, the Penrose Tiling. My picture is actually an oil painting but I would love to make a stained glass version for anyone willing to pay me a few grand.

And here's work in progress - still a bit draughty round the top. I suppose if they'd bought a plastic one it would have fitted better. This is the door held in place with the help of eight plastic rawlplugs. Where wold we be without plastic?

 

[Manks]

Biff

There can't be many places where you could supply and fit even a plastic window for £200

I buy about one set a month. Average price £200 per unit including VAT fitted.

Manks

 

[Nemesis]

Bet that's quality stuff then. Bet those starter homes are a thing of joy on the landscape, are they? Designed to last? Or is that no longer important?

So how did you dispose of the ones you removed when you fiitted wooden windows to your own home?

http://www.cat.org.uk/information/catinfo.tmpl?command=search&db=catinfo.db&eqSKUdatarq=InfoSheet_Glazing

Specifying new windows

When buying new or replacement windows, we would recommend going for double-glazed, low-e coated, argon filled, timber framed units. The gap between the two panes of glass should be about 20mm. A smaller gap will have a slightly poorer thermal performance, but a bigger gap will not make much difference (except that it will give better sound insulation). Windows with lots of glazing bars (e.g. Georgian type) will usually give a poorer performance, as the multiple bars conduct heat out.

A low-E ("low emissivity") coating improves the thermal performance of the window by reducing heat flow between the panes of glass, and is required by current building regulations. It is a very thin layer of metal, and makes only a tiny difference to the amount of light coming though the window. To protect this coating, it is put within the gap - on the outer surface of the inner pane.

Using argon gas between the panes also improves the performance of the window, as the gas does not conduct heat as well as air. Krypton gas is also sometimes used, especially if a narrow gap between panes is needed - as it will give a better performance than argon (but is more costly).

'U-values' are a measure of thermal performance - the lower the value, the better a material or building element is as an insulator.

Specification U-value
Single glazing 5.5
Standard double glazing 2.7
Double glazing, low-E coating 1.8
Double glazing, low-E coating and argon-filled 1.6 to 1.3
Triple glazing, multiple low-E coating and argon-filled less than 1.0


Timber, uPVC or aluminium frames?

If you are replacing your windows, then wood is definitely the option to go for. There are lots of environmental problems associated with the manufacture of PVC. High levels of dioxins and other organochlorines are found around PVC plants and are released to the atmosphere on combustion. They've been linked with cancer, immune system damage and hormone disruption. Although manufacturing techniques are improving, disposal at end-of-life is still a problem.

PVC windows will use large amounts of energy in manufacture, whereas wood windows will not. Wooden windows can last for more than 50 years, and beyond that they can be renovated rather then replaced. PVC windows will usually need replacing after a much shorter period. And although PVC window manufacturers claim their products are maintenance free, Dulux recently brought out a PVC window paint, recommended for use every six years!

Aluminium windows will have involved a lot of energy use and pollution during manufacture. The coatings used on some frames make their recycling difficult - which is not ideal for such a high-value material, so look for anodized frames if you do choose aluminium.

FSC-certified temperate (rather than tropical) hardwood or a durable softwood should be the first choice. This will last longer than a cheaper less durable softwood window, and the preservatives needed to protect the latter will cause some pollution when the wood eventually needs to be disposed of. Softwood, or sustainable (e.g. FSC) timber would still be preferable to uPVC.

Choosing wood framed windows

Unfortunately, wood frames have had a poor image in the past, as UK-made softwood windows were often of low quality. However, we are learning from the Scandinavians and it is now possible to get windows manufactured in the UK to high standards of airtightness, using homegrown, durable, untreated wood.

Avoid painting wood, as this increases the environmental impact. Choose untreated durable wood, or a less durable wood that has been pre-treated in manufacture, using a low-impact natural and renewable treatment. If you choose a durable temperate hardwood, then it will not need treating and should last 30 years. These include oak, sweet chestnut or larch.

Costs

A report by WWF collated various estimates of the relative costs of timber and PVC windows. Overall, it found that even high performance timber windows should not cost more than PVC. Case studies in the report show that timber-framed windows cost 15% to 25% less than uPVC units. Also, sustainable timber, e.g. with the FSC mark, should be no more expensive than standard timber.

The WWF 'Window of Opportunity' report is a free download (1.8MB). To access it, right-click and save from the following link: http://www.wwf.org.uk/filelibrary/pdf/windows_0305.pdf

http://www.greenspec.co.uk/html/materials/windowframes.html

Or if you wish to paint:

http://www.holkham.co.uk/linseedpaints/paints/seamist.html

(Frankly I think 30 years is a laughable underestimate. Many oak windows and doors have lasted centuries!)

 

[biffvernon]

I buy about one set a month. Average price £200 per unit including VAT fitted.

Go on, give us a laugh. Post a picture of one of those windows.

 

[Nemesis]

Better still, read Mr Blundell on them, in his book on vernacular architecture.


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Oak.

But maybe they could buy one of these, at under five hundred quid in the sale surely a snip? And no maintenance for at least - ooooh, until it's chucked in landfill. Five years?


http://www.upvcdoorcompany.co.uk/order-online-step4.asp?DoorStyleID=221



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Lovely.

 

[biffvernon]

That's pretentiously excessive use of wrought iron. Who's he trying to impress?

My next job is a counterboarded oak front door, but all the ironwork will be on the inside - minimalism is more du jour.

 

[Nemesis]

Well it is from a church, so maybe it was to the greater glory.

http://southwellchurches.nottingham.ac.uk/a02/index.html

(Some of those placcy doors are nine hundred quid... are they havin' a larf?)

And it seems some local authorities still use wood:

http://www.allanbrothers.co.uk/referencesites.html

 

[Penners]

Roger Penrose

OK, Understood. His father was my grandfather's cousin. Not sure what that makes me in relation to him (other than an intellectual midget).