Penners
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I'm glad you dare say it, FW, because I don't! However, I shan't argue with your brief summary of life at Penners Towers.FamilyWiggs said:
- Thread starter B16mts
- Start date
Hi,
The issue is that we are not the brief custodians of the house. Its been in the family for about 150 years, when electricity came along it was installed, when they were connected to mains water, they stopped using the well in the yard.
When insulation becomes viable, should it not be embraced in a way that will improve the building and potentially add to its future history.
I do agree, if it were mine I'd much rather keep the origonality and history. However i understand my mum would like a slightly more up to date approach.
I mainly want to ensure it will not do more harm than good and cause major issues in the long run.
The walls are indeed bone dry at present at least.
Apologies for the grammar issues, I'm using a tablet pc that insists on making assumptions as to what I'm trying to say.
Thank you so much for the warm welcome.
Martin
The issue is that we are not the brief custodians of the house. Its been in the family for about 150 years, when electricity came along it was installed, when they were connected to mains water, they stopped using the well in the yard.
When insulation becomes viable, should it not be embraced in a way that will improve the building and potentially add to its future history.
I do agree, if it were mine I'd much rather keep the origonality and history. However i understand my mum would like a slightly more up to date approach.
I mainly want to ensure it will not do more harm than good and cause major issues in the long run.
The walls are indeed bone dry at present at least.
Apologies for the grammar issues, I'm using a tablet pc that insists on making assumptions as to what I'm trying to say.
Thank you so much for the warm welcome.
Martin
FamilyWiggs
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It's a balance I guess, that we each have to find.
Houses have to be habitable in order to survive, and few would suggest that electricity or plumbing shouldn't be installed. However they can largely be retrofitted in a minimally destructive way that preserves the existing fabric. Similarly insultation can be added to roofspaces, or even on top of existing walls.
At the other end of the spectrum, removing windows to install plastic double glazing (which could be argued as a modern convenience like plumbing) permanently destroys original fabric. It can't be undone.
Taking up a floor, to put down a membrane and pour concrete is (in my humble opinion) at this irreversible end of the scale. It might be that there are other options, if the floor is not damp, to heat the room. These other answers might not have the same risk of creating other problems that concrete floors and membranes can cause.
My point about being temporary custodians, is that even if we have owned the same house for generations, each of us is only a temporary custodian for a few decades, stamping our desires and changes upon our built heritage. This carries responsibilities to hand it to future generations.
This is where others pop up and point out my inconsistency... because we have similar environmental repsonsibilities, and yet I like burning coal on the fire! :roll:
Incidentally, is the Georgian place, or the older place next door, listed?
Houses have to be habitable in order to survive, and few would suggest that electricity or plumbing shouldn't be installed. However they can largely be retrofitted in a minimally destructive way that preserves the existing fabric. Similarly insultation can be added to roofspaces, or even on top of existing walls.
At the other end of the spectrum, removing windows to install plastic double glazing (which could be argued as a modern convenience like plumbing) permanently destroys original fabric. It can't be undone.
Taking up a floor, to put down a membrane and pour concrete is (in my humble opinion) at this irreversible end of the scale. It might be that there are other options, if the floor is not damp, to heat the room. These other answers might not have the same risk of creating other problems that concrete floors and membranes can cause.
My point about being temporary custodians, is that even if we have owned the same house for generations, each of us is only a temporary custodian for a few decades, stamping our desires and changes upon our built heritage. This carries responsibilities to hand it to future generations.
This is where others pop up and point out my inconsistency... because we have similar environmental repsonsibilities, and yet I like burning coal on the fire! :roll:
Incidentally, is the Georgian place, or the older place next door, listed?
Not listed at all thankfully.
Sadly the main house (where I'm moving into) had all the origonal georgian sash windows removed in favour of pvc double glazing 15 years ago. Sacrilege i know, but i was too young to understand what was going on.
The former servants side (that we're talking about for my parents) has smaller windows as its an older building, and was pvc'd years ago.
I agree that i want to help find that balance between some modern convenience and comfort, keeping some origonal character, and giving my parents somewhere they can live long into retirement. If we can find a way of making them comfortable, its more than likely the entire farm will be sold in the next 5 years so they can move somewhere more comfortable, thus i will not have the opportunity to raise my children in the fantastic surroundings i was brought up in.
I want to find a balance, and will be speaking to my folks more this weekend.
Thanks again
Martin
Sadly the main house (where I'm moving into) had all the origonal georgian sash windows removed in favour of pvc double glazing 15 years ago. Sacrilege i know, but i was too young to understand what was going on.
The former servants side (that we're talking about for my parents) has smaller windows as its an older building, and was pvc'd years ago.
I agree that i want to help find that balance between some modern convenience and comfort, keeping some origonal character, and giving my parents somewhere they can live long into retirement. If we can find a way of making them comfortable, its more than likely the entire farm will be sold in the next 5 years so they can move somewhere more comfortable, thus i will not have the opportunity to raise my children in the fantastic surroundings i was brought up in.
I want to find a balance, and will be speaking to my folks more this weekend.
Thanks again
Martin
worms
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Could you perhaps convince her that the real trend now is to preserving the historic fabric and insulating using modern approaches such as an insulated limecrete floor with the original floor bricks replaced above the limecrete?B16mts said:
Hang on a tick. I did not rip out the sashes. I liked them myself and wish they'd stayed. However i was a teenager, it wasn't my house and the farm was on the cusp of going bust.
I guess you'd rather the place rot and collapse in its entirely instead of actually be lived in.
Sometimes we have to make decisions based on what's right at the time. My family cannot afford to live in a rose tinted replica of years gone by, but want to live in the house that's been in the family for decades, and was built over 2 centuries ago when my ancestors were in the neighbouring farm.
We don't have to cling to any old scrap of the original building we find to keep a sense of "history". The buildings history is in the memories and stories from my grandparents and parents and I'm proud of that.
I'd like to keep the old farmhouse feel, beams and stone floors, but that my taste. I fully understand that my parents have got over the novelty of wood fired central heating after living with it for 50 years and the difficulties it brings. They now want to retire in comfort and convenience where they have worked all their lives, and i respect that.
All the carpet tiles are up today on the ground floor revealing a mix of black/red quarry tiles and blue bricks. This was under a layer of roofing felt which in turn was under a layer of sealed lino. The decision is to lift the tiles, dig out, visqueen, insulate and concrete. They will be opening up the fireplace. The plaster will be lime plaster to let the walls breathe as they have been for the last 40 years, and i think they're going to reuse the floor bricks for the new patio which should be really nice.
Thanks for the helpful comments.
Martin
I guess you'd rather the place rot and collapse in its entirely instead of actually be lived in.
Sometimes we have to make decisions based on what's right at the time. My family cannot afford to live in a rose tinted replica of years gone by, but want to live in the house that's been in the family for decades, and was built over 2 centuries ago when my ancestors were in the neighbouring farm.
We don't have to cling to any old scrap of the original building we find to keep a sense of "history". The buildings history is in the memories and stories from my grandparents and parents and I'm proud of that.
I'd like to keep the old farmhouse feel, beams and stone floors, but that my taste. I fully understand that my parents have got over the novelty of wood fired central heating after living with it for 50 years and the difficulties it brings. They now want to retire in comfort and convenience where they have worked all their lives, and i respect that.
All the carpet tiles are up today on the ground floor revealing a mix of black/red quarry tiles and blue bricks. This was under a layer of roofing felt which in turn was under a layer of sealed lino. The decision is to lift the tiles, dig out, visqueen, insulate and concrete. They will be opening up the fireplace. The plaster will be lime plaster to let the walls breathe as they have been for the last 40 years, and i think they're going to reuse the floor bricks for the new patio which should be really nice.
Thanks for the helpful comments.
Martin
plasticpigeon
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Hi Martin. Of course you and your family can make any changes you like to your own property. However people on this forum, which is devoted to sharing information in order to try and preserve the original fabric of period houses, are not on the whole going to agree with the idea of making drastic changes to old properties, such as pulling up original floors or replacing windows. I'm afraid these ideas will be met with opposition (and I know that you didn't choose to have the windows replaced, but for people on this forum it will still be seen as a crying shame!) For my money, if you want a warm floor with underfloor heating, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to put the original tiles back down as the floor covering over the concrete and heating elements or even better put the original quarries over a heated limecrete floor.
JoceAndChris
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B16mts said:
Oh dear. It's arguments like these that make me so glad I fought to get my building listed. Faulty as it is, thank god the listing system exists to protect our most valuable heritage from the attitude that essentially a house is yours to do what you like with, stuff any moral responsibility to hand down the tangible, atmospheric footprint of the past to people who might appreciate it a bit more.
The hysterical cry of "oh, you'd rather it fell down!" is so often cited by people as justification of drastic dismantling to make the house fit modern notions of comfort. No, it's not going to fall down, and could be treated sensitively and appropriately, covering up rather than ripping out, applying insulation in the old fashioned way of thick, heavy, interlined drapes, thick carpets, more clothing, a fire burning. When I researched the history of my house I was delighted to see how many of the 19th C inhabitants reached their 90s whilst living here. That was without central heating, electricity or any insulation at all. I fully intend to reach 100 living here, with those modern comforts having been installed, but keeping the lovely characterful old slabs and pamments laid on earth, and the single glaze sashes etc.
Martin - I wasn't accusing you of destroying the sash windows, honestly. My post was just a very clumsy attempt to point out that, had the house been listed, they would still be there.
I've had the pleasure of owning two listed houses, and in both of them I've found that the listing meant that I didn't do a lot of things that I'd later (and wiser) have come to regret. For me it was an invaluable safety net.
I've had the pleasure of owning two listed houses, and in both of them I've found that the listing meant that I didn't do a lot of things that I'd later (and wiser) have come to regret. For me it was an invaluable safety net.
Hi Martin, welcome to the forum. Most people on here are very much in favour of the conservation of old buildings rather than the irreplacable removal of historic fabric. Having said this, it is your (or your parents) house, and as its not listed to protect it, you can obviously do with it as you please. Mentioning the lime render shows you obviously have a grasp of the issues old buildings have when new many materials are used, and its great that you plan on using lime for the walls.
I'm sure we'd all like you to keep popping by for advice rather than scare you off the forum. We're all rather passionate about old buildings on here, so any talk of removing floors many of us would die for is going get some strong reactions, so forgive us as I'm sure we'll all keep trying to persuade you to persuade your mother to keep it!
For my two penneth, maybe if you we're to explain to your mum that removing the original floor will almost certainly knock some value from the house. People love original floors when buying property's now, and the cost of laying a new stone/pammet floor, which is what many purchasers would no doubt want to do, would be pretty expensive.
I can totally understand the desire for underfloor heating, but installing and replacing the original floor bricks would be a great solution in my opinion. You'd have all the heat benefits
whilt retaining the character and history of the house.
I'm sure we'd all like you to keep popping by for advice rather than scare you off the forum. We're all rather passionate about old buildings on here, so any talk of removing floors many of us would die for is going get some strong reactions, so forgive us as I'm sure we'll all keep trying to persuade you to persuade your mother to keep it!
For my two penneth, maybe if you we're to explain to your mum that removing the original floor will almost certainly knock some value from the house. People love original floors when buying property's now, and the cost of laying a new stone/pammet floor, which is what many purchasers would no doubt want to do, would be pretty expensive.
I can totally understand the desire for underfloor heating, but installing and replacing the original floor bricks would be a great solution in my opinion. You'd have all the heat benefits
whilt retaining the character and history of the house.
FamilyWiggs
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Martin,
I have to be honest, I'm not sure what advice you're asking for from the forum. You've told us your family have already double glazed both properties, and presumably cement rendered 60yrs ago. Now you're ripping up the original floor and putting in a membrane and concrete. You're thinking of plasterboard ing the walls. What's on the walls at the moment? Are you planning on removing what is there already?
We've advised on alternative sympathetic options.
You've told us the house isn't listed, is yours to do with as you wish (true) and your parents wish to be comfortable.
I'm really not sure what we can advise on. You seem to have made up your mind.
Or have I misunderstood?
I will advise again. If you rip up a breathable floor, put in a membrane and concrete, then you risk pushing moisture into the walls and causing damp problems you don't currently have. This isn't just inconvenient, it can affect the structural integrity of the building in the longer term. It can literally rot away as you put it.
Altering the balance of a traditional building is fraught with this risk. You've already identified the condensation problem that arrived after double glazing was installed. I would caution against compounding this.
What is it you would like us to advise on?
I have to be honest, I'm not sure what advice you're asking for from the forum. You've told us your family have already double glazed both properties, and presumably cement rendered 60yrs ago. Now you're ripping up the original floor and putting in a membrane and concrete. You're thinking of plasterboard ing the walls. What's on the walls at the moment? Are you planning on removing what is there already?
We've advised on alternative sympathetic options.
You've told us the house isn't listed, is yours to do with as you wish (true) and your parents wish to be comfortable.
I'm really not sure what we can advise on. You seem to have made up your mind.
Or have I misunderstood?
I will advise again. If you rip up a breathable floor, put in a membrane and concrete, then you risk pushing moisture into the walls and causing damp problems you don't currently have. This isn't just inconvenient, it can affect the structural integrity of the building in the longer term. It can literally rot away as you put it.
Altering the balance of a traditional building is fraught with this risk. You've already identified the condensation problem that arrived after double glazing was installed. I would caution against compounding this.
What is it you would like us to advise on?
LadyArowana
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FamilyWiggs said:
I can second that. At some point, probably in the 1980's the floor in the lowest level of our house was concreted. I don't know if it was poured over the original flagstones or if they were ripped up. The walls were replastered with gypsum and it was painted in something vinyl. There are now patches near the skirting where moisture has damaged the plaster. Such a shame that it was done, and at some point will have to be remedied. A nicely restored original feature can be a good selling point precisely because so many people have completely ruined what was once there.
I've browsed through this thread and I have a lot of sympathy for Martin. The property is not listed for a couple of reasons -1) the property itself is among thousands of similar farmhouses still standing in this Country and perhaps not considered to be of great architectural or historical interest , or- 2) there has been no interest from the owners to force the issue and exploited the possibility to have it listed.
Also, if the property has been in the family for a couple of hundred years the chances are that somewhere along it's occupancy a certain generation may feel it is about time to bring the house into the 21st C and enjoy the " creature comforts". Whilst the family (in general) displays a great attachment to the "family home" the same cannot be said where the " historical" significance of it's fabric is concerned.
I have experienced this " mentality" pattern on a few family owned farm buildings that I have done restorations or repairs on. The main reason why I became involved with these restorations was due to their listing status where the owners were advised to repair the property in accordance with listing requirements and not because they had a desire to keep their draughty single glazed windows or their cold brick and/or flagstone floors. Their priority appeared to lay in " comfort" and " out with old ". I also detected that after years and years of these owners " putting up" with it, it was time to " upgrade. On a couple of these buildings some members of the family would have been quite happy to sell the farmhouse ( if only they could !!!!!) and move to a modern property.
The contributors on this forum ( I think ) have shown that , in the main, are passionate for conservation of old buildings. We also now that there is a tremendous amount to learn before we decide what should "go" or should "stay" during the restoration ( or repair) process of an old building. This situation is further aggravated if the building is not listed, the " quality" of the restoration is then dependant on the degree of " passion" for restoration as interpreted by the owners, or, the type of builders they engage to do the work.
Most of the best restorations are carried out by the really passionate DIYers, these people make it a vocations to find out how a building in question functions, what is the building need and ( because of their passion !!!) how can they happily live within it.
A good majority will settle somewhere in between preservation of original fabric and inclusion of modern conveniences.
I have also noticed that a number of "ardent" conservationists of their building will only interpret conservation where it suits their needs and not necessarely the need of their building. For some it is just a romantic notion as opposed to practicality and understanding of restoration.
There you have it, ( or you haven't if it is not in yout DNA). For some people living in their home comfortably is more important than " staring" it's historical merit.
This is why it is extremely important that the right advise is sought when attempting an " upgrade" of an old building. As we all know, this is not always easy.
At least Martin, as in this case, has shown a sense of responsability towards the need of the building and addressed this forum, unfortunately he cannot speak for the needs of other members of the family.
Middi
Also, if the property has been in the family for a couple of hundred years the chances are that somewhere along it's occupancy a certain generation may feel it is about time to bring the house into the 21st C and enjoy the " creature comforts". Whilst the family (in general) displays a great attachment to the "family home" the same cannot be said where the " historical" significance of it's fabric is concerned.
I have experienced this " mentality" pattern on a few family owned farm buildings that I have done restorations or repairs on. The main reason why I became involved with these restorations was due to their listing status where the owners were advised to repair the property in accordance with listing requirements and not because they had a desire to keep their draughty single glazed windows or their cold brick and/or flagstone floors. Their priority appeared to lay in " comfort" and " out with old ". I also detected that after years and years of these owners " putting up" with it, it was time to " upgrade. On a couple of these buildings some members of the family would have been quite happy to sell the farmhouse ( if only they could !!!!!) and move to a modern property.
The contributors on this forum ( I think ) have shown that , in the main, are passionate for conservation of old buildings. We also now that there is a tremendous amount to learn before we decide what should "go" or should "stay" during the restoration ( or repair) process of an old building. This situation is further aggravated if the building is not listed, the " quality" of the restoration is then dependant on the degree of " passion" for restoration as interpreted by the owners, or, the type of builders they engage to do the work.
Most of the best restorations are carried out by the really passionate DIYers, these people make it a vocations to find out how a building in question functions, what is the building need and ( because of their passion !!!) how can they happily live within it.
A good majority will settle somewhere in between preservation of original fabric and inclusion of modern conveniences.
I have also noticed that a number of "ardent" conservationists of their building will only interpret conservation where it suits their needs and not necessarely the need of their building. For some it is just a romantic notion as opposed to practicality and understanding of restoration.
There you have it, ( or you haven't if it is not in yout DNA). For some people living in their home comfortably is more important than " staring" it's historical merit.
This is why it is extremely important that the right advise is sought when attempting an " upgrade" of an old building. As we all know, this is not always easy.
At least Martin, as in this case, has shown a sense of responsability towards the need of the building and addressed this forum, unfortunately he cannot speak for the needs of other members of the family.
Middi
vicky whitworth
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Expecting people on a period property discussion forum not to be beyond passionate about conserving old buildings is like joining the Church of England and then wondering why everyone believes in God. If you come here for advice you can expect to hear our beliefs, and I'll argue my case beyond worrying whether it makes me popular because if we stop then the creep of devastation of our old houses continues unchallenged. Our beliefs don't harm anyone, and we make our point in the kindest of ways. And I'm not advocating we do any more than that.
Oh and in my experience a property being listed doesn't prevent approval being given for the old windows being removed and something totally inappropriate being put in.
One day the world will look back and regret the trashing of our houses - and it will be too late. Vicky
Oh and in my experience a property being listed doesn't prevent approval being given for the old windows being removed and something totally inappropriate being put in.
One day the world will look back and regret the trashing of our houses - and it will be too late. Vicky
plasticpigeon
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I do agree with you Vicky about this being a place to be passionate about what we believe. I think ytthe reality is that few people care about preservation, so it is nice to have a forum with like minded people for support as much as anything, but actually I don't think that most people in general will look back with regret about modernising old houses. As far as I can tell there has never been a generation that hasn't torn down much of what came before it in the name of progress. As far as I know, the Victorians pulled down loads of stuff after only a few years!!! Unfortunately the emphasis since the second world war has been on making construction easier and faster, and the architecture is generally functional not beautiful which I hate.
Someone on this forum mentioned that on their street that there were two rival developers building houses and the bricklayers tried to outdo each other by executing increasingly fancy brickwork. In that case competition increased quality. I have a feeling that in the same situation today, competition would be to see who could build the houses most cheaply.
Someone on this forum mentioned that on their street that there were two rival developers building houses and the bricklayers tried to outdo each other by executing increasingly fancy brickwork. In that case competition increased quality. I have a feeling that in the same situation today, competition would be to see who could build the houses most cheaply.
FamilyWiggs
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vicky whitworth said:
Good grief, do people still fall for those old fairy tales? How quaint. We should list them, before they disappear forever. :wink: :roll:
We had a professor of Astrophysics come to our secondary school this week, he is also head of the National Schools Observatory. He led some incredibly exciting lectures to kids and parents on science; it was a joy to see them come away enthused by it. Science, especially astronomy, is one of the few areas where we still truly lead the world.
Some of the kids got to operate the Liverpool Robotic Telescope in Hawaii. How cool is that?
Even cooler were the pics of supernovae he showed, and his explanation that that is really where we were all made (and return). To see the kids start to appreciate the unfathomable vastness of space and time, and to ask really fundamental questions is inspirational.
If the National Schools Observatory AstroTour comes to a school near you over the next couple of years, move anything to go and attend.
We can now return to the topic in hand. 8)
Flyfisher
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B16mts said:
There's no doubt that listing brings a level of red tape, but it's really not as onerous as it might seem. Plus, if you're lucky to have a good council conservation officer, it comes with free expert advice and guidance.
I would, however, challenge the notion that you're free to do as you wish with an unlisted property. Planning consents still apply to many works and building regulations impose many conditions these days, constraining what you can and can't do (legally).
So, in my experience, there's little to choose between listed or unlisted except that listed building consent is a free process and you don't have to pay for the expert advice freely given by conservation professionals.
However, none of that is of immediate relevance in this case.
Middi makes some very good points and itsoweds like Martin is in a difficult situation. He seems more sympathetic regarding the house than his parents but he doesn't have the final say about things, which cannot be a comfortable position. In such circumstances, diplomacy is likely to be more productive than castigation. Indeed, the latter may result in Martin never returning to PPUK, in which case what will we have achieved?
I would emphasise FW's observations about the potential dangers of installing a new concrete floor. Regardless of any conservation ethos, it may simply be a bad thing to do in terms of the changing the behaviour of the house. Perhaps we should focus on better alternatives. For example, would a suspended floor be a practical option? This could provide an insulated floor whilst leaving the original floor intact and underfloor ventilation should prevent any damp complications that could occur with a solid concrete floor.