Help needed for my first solo plumbing job

[Penners]

I must say that I've never managed to overtighten a compression joint. You can, however, have trouble with them if you forget to put the rigid slippery disc between the back of the rubber olive and the screw-cap. The rotation of the cap then drags on the olive and distorts it.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Jaqy - LS-X is heavenly stuff... not sure if it is healthy but I tend to cure it with spit on a finger.... it has a slight citric acid taste if you forget which finger you used to spread it. :shock:

The sealing washer should be inside the sink (between waste fitting and porcelain) and not underneath. You want to stop the water going around the waste fitting - once it has, you can't really seal it from underneath.

Be brave a tighten then big plastic nut underneath the sink. If that doesn't work, tighten a little more. If all else fails, undo and use the LS-X. But I'd much rather know I had physical seal than a chemical one.

 

[robgil]

guys , on a belfast sink with integral overflow you really dont need to seal the top of the waste where it meets the sink, its a waste of time, the waste fitting will have a big hole in its threaded shaft anyway to allow the over flow to flow into the drain pipe.
the only seal that you need is below the sink between the bottom of the sink and the securing nut.

see?

if you have fitted a waste without this hole and the sink is a belfast sink then you have no overflow.
if you have fitted one of these but have not sealed the bottom of the waste then when the overflow is operational water will flow around the waste and leak out the bottom , also when you pull the plug water will flow out through this hole in the waste and again leak out the bottom.
there really is no point in sealing the waste between the flange part and the sink.


View attachment 1

this might help.View attachment 1

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Rob -you're quite right.

I hadn't read upthread fully enough.

Jaqy - do what Rob says. He may be a stranger to capital letters and apostrophes (well not a complete stranger to apostrophes, admittedly!! :wink: ), but his attention to detail and ability to read is far greater than mine. :lol:

 

[robgil]

this is only providing it is a belfast sink , i did read somewhere that belfast sinks had integral overflows and butler sinks dont, i cant remember the full story but they were made in belfast because the materials were more readily available ,l or something like that, i shall have a rummage and see if i can find the thing i read.
I do find that caps lock button sometimes, but i type with two fingers you see (unless one is stuck up my nose) and it takes me ages to type anything , i also have to look at the keyboard and not the screen, so it can be a bit of a pain for me to type long posts like this one, especially on this mini note book teeny lap top thing i am using.
i am glad ive got spell check though.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

i am glad ive got spell check though.

Who'd be without a spellchecker? They've even written a pome in its honour:

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

 

[robgil]

That made my head hurt FW.

RE Belfast and butler sinks , i found this , not from the source i read it from in the past but its more or less the same thing.

"In actual fact they are both butler sinks (ie made to go in the butler’s pantry), but those made in Belfast have a Weir overflow, while those made in London don’t.


"This is because, when butler sinks were first made in the late 17th century, each major city had a sanitation officer autonomously responsible for the ordering of pipes, basins, sinks, and decreeing sizes, styles etc. Different patterns were evolved and gave rise to specific types. Hence the Belfast butler sink was different from, say, the London butler sink.

"Belfast, with access to plentiful water housed sinks with overflows, but London , built on clay where deep wells had to be drilled to reach water, discouraged water wastage and no overflows were accommodated. Therefore, the Belfast butler sink has what is known as a Weir overflow built into it, whereas a standard Butler Sink doesn’t."

I didnt know that the large butler sinks with a finished front is known as a farmers sink.

 

[Feltwell]

Who'd be without a spellchecker? They've even written a pome in its honour:

That sounds very much like the kind of thing Pam Ayres would have written back in the 70's, if spellcheckers had existed then!

 

[Flyfisher]

but i type with two fingers you see (unless one is stuck up my nose)

Thank you for that image. Still, I suppose it could have been worse. :lol:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Who'd be without a spellchecker? They've even written a pome in its honour:

That sounds very much like the kind of thing Pam Ayres would have written back in the 70's, if spellcheckers had existed then!

She's great isn't she. Still going strong too - seems to be on tour almost permanently:

http://www.pamayres.com/index.asp

Oh, I wish I'd looked after me teeth,
And spotted the perils beneath,
All the toffees I chewed,
And the sweet sticky food,
Oh, I wish I'd looked after me teeth.

I wish I'd been that much more willin'
When I had more tooth there than fillin'
To pass up gobstoppers,
From respect to me choppers
And to buy something else with me shillin'.

When I think of the lollies I licked,
And the liquorice allsorts I picked,
Sherbet dabs, big and little,
All that hard peanut brittle,
My conscience gets horribly pricked.

My Mother, she told me no end,
"If you got a tooth, you got a friend"
I was young then, and careless,
My toothbrush was hairless,
I never had much time to spend.

Oh I showed them the toothpaste all right,
I flashed it about late at night,
But up-and-down brushin'
And pokin' and fussin'
Didn't seem worth the time... I could bite!

If I'd known I was paving the way,
To cavities, caps and decay,
The murder of fiIlin's
Injections and drillin's
I'd have thrown all me sherbet away.

So I lay in the old dentist's chair,
And I gaze up his nose in despair,
And his drill it do whine,
In these molars of mine,
"Two amalgum," he'll say, "for in there."

How I laughed at my Mother's false teeth,
As they foamed in the waters beneath,
But now comes the reckonin'
It's me they are beckonin'
Oh, I wish I'd looked after me teeth.

 

[Tom]

Right, enough of this frivolity! Let's get back to sinks Here's some more pictures to clear up some of the things people have been wondering about.

It is a Belfast with an integral overflow...

View attachment 2

Here's a picture of the underside, showing the thread and nut...

View attachment 1

And a close up of the plug hole...



And, just to add some background information. I bought this sink about 10 years ago with the waste already attached. It's been in storage since then. It's entirely possible that the waste has been knocked and loosened during that time and I've not made any attempt to tighten the nut. Do you think I should do this now? If so, should I spray it with WD40 and leave overnight given the length of time it's been fitted? I'm just thinking that it could be so tight that it might crack the porcelain. Also, if I'm going to tighten it, do I need something to stop it turning the top part in the sink or will it tighten up against it? And, here's a really stupid question...which way tightens it? If I put a wrench on it, do I pull it to the right or left?

If I tighten the nut and it still leaks, should I try to disassemble the lot and put a gasket on the thread? Or should I leave it as it is and smear it with LS-X?

Do I need to seal around the flange on the plug hole? I haven't cleaned it yet but it looks like there used to be something there that's worn away. If I'm going to disassemble the waste, should I put LS-X under the flange or not?

Finally, if I'm going to disassemble the waste should I just get a new one and have done with the original? I quite like the tarnished look of the original one and worry that a new one will look just too, well, new. And maybe people will think the sink is one of those horrible hollow new ones :shock: (I flicked a finger on a new one in B&Q the other day; the hollow 'ring' was awful!).

I seem to have more questions about this than I had about fitting the trap!! Mind you, there's more potential to cause damage to the sink with this bit. This is why I want as much info as possible.

Thank you to everyone who's helping me, by the way. I'm so grateful. It's really helping me to get this job done

 

[Flyfisher]

And, here's a really stupid question...which way tightens it? If I put a wrench on it, do I pull it to the right or left?

Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey.

I may have missed something but are you absolutely sure it's leaking from the around the original fitting? Could it be leaking where the new plastic pipework joins the original threaded pipe - or, indeed, from any of the other plastic joints.

My experience is that these plastic compression fittings often need to be screwed together surprisingly tightly for a really watertight seal. It's also impottant to make sure that the joints are totally clean and smooth, as well as the rubber gaskets, so that no grit gets in the way of a good seal.

 

[Tom]

And, here's a really stupid question...which way tightens it? If I put a wrench on it, do I pull it to the right or left?

Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey.

Brilliant! Thank you

I may have missed something but are you absolutely sure it's leaking from the around the original fitting?

Yes, definitely, as I can see the water glistening as it travels down the thread.

 

[robgil]

try and nip it up, if its solid try removing it, if its still solid you need to cut the nut off remove and replace the waste. Its got compound on it so you could try and put more around where you see the leak but thats a long shot.
keeping the waste still while trying to move a tight nut can be interesting so sometimes its just easier to cut and replace.
you can get nice antique brass wastes on e bay sometimes or reclamation yards usually have them.

edit - i would try and re-use the lead washer with some compound, a much better job than the flimsy rubber washers they supply you with these days.

 

[Flyfisher]

keeping the waste still while trying to move a tight nut can be interesting so sometimes its just easier to cut and replace.

How strong are the radial metal bits in the plug-hole grating? Would it be possible to prevent the whole fitting from turning by banging some large nails (say) into a bit of 4x2 and then place the protruding nails into the plug hole to prevent the grating, and thus the whole fitting, from rotating when pressure is applied to the underneath nut.

Pure conjecture though, I've never tried anything like that myself.

 

[Lime]

Right, enough of this frivolity! Let's get back to sinks Here's some more pictures to clear up some of the things people have been wondering about.

It is a Belfast with an integral overflow...

View attachment 2

Here's a picture of the underside, showing the thread and nut...

View attachment 1

And a close up of the plug hole...



And, just to add some background information. I bought this sink about 10 years ago with the waste already attached. It's been in storage since then. It's entirely possible that the waste has been knocked and loosened during that time and I've not made any attempt to tighten the nut. Do you think I should do this now? If so, should I spray it with WD40 and leave overnight given the length of time it's been fitted? I'm just thinking that it could be so tight that it might crack the porcelain. Also, if I'm going to tighten it, do I need something to stop it turning the top part in the sink or will it tighten up against it? And, here's a really stupid question...which way tightens it? If I put a wrench on it, do I pull it to the right or left?

If I tighten the nut and it still leaks, should I try to disassemble the lot and put a gasket on the thread? Or should I leave it as it is and smear it with LS-X?

Do I need to seal around the flange on the plug hole? I haven't cleaned it yet but it looks like there used to be something there that's worn away. If I'm going to disassemble the waste, should I put LS-X under the flange or not?

Finally, if I'm going to disassemble the waste should I just get a new one and have done with the original? I quite like the tarnished look of the original one and worry that a new one will look just too, well, new. And maybe people will think the sink is one of those horrible hollow new ones :shock: (I flicked a finger on a new one in B&Q the other day; the hollow 'ring' was awful!).

I seem to have more questions about this than I had about fitting the trap!! Mind you, there's more potential to cause damage to the sink with this bit. This is why I want as much info as possible.

Thank you to everyone who's helping me, by the way. I'm so grateful. It's really helping me to get this job done

Well, I think this is a good example of where not to start if attempting DIY plumbing.

The old waste will have been put in using putty and it will have set like stone by now.
Also the nut will have had putty locking it in place to the thread of the waste.
Turning the nut will probably result in the whole waste turning in the sink making the leak far worse.
Then there will be the problem of holding the old waste still while the nut is turned.
It is very easy to damage the brass waste, particularly the waste grill (that stops large stuff going down the hole), and the damage will stare back at you for the rest of the waste's life.
A new waste will not be big enough to fill the hole in the sink.

Best of luck but I can think of no worst first-attempt-at-DIY than on a sink like this.

 

[Feltwell]

She's great isn't she. Still going strong too - seems to be on tour almost permanently:

http://www.pamayres.com/index.asp

Ohh, she did much racier stuff that that you know........

I bought myself a Wonderbra
For fourteen ninety nine,
It looked so good on the model girl's chest,
And I hoped it would on mine,
I took it from the packaging
And when I tried it on,
The Wonderbra restored to me
All I believed had gone

Chorus:
Let's all salute the Wonderbra,
The Wonderbra, the Wonderbra,
Let's all salute the Wonderbra,
For fourteen ninety-nine.

It gave me such a figure,
I can't believe it's mine,
I showed it to my husband
And it made his eyeballs shine,
And when I served the breakfast,
The kids cried out, 'Hooray!
Here comes our darling mother,
with her bosom on a tray!'

I didn't really need one,
my present bra, it's true,
Had only been in constant use
Since nineteen eighty-two,
But the silhouette I dreamed about,
Is mine, is mine at last,
And builders on the scaffolding,
Drop off as I walk past

Chorus:
Singing .. let's all salute the Wonderbra,
The Wonderbra, the Wonderbra,
Let's all salute the Wonderbra
For fourteen ninety-nine!

 

[robgil]

you can buy new wastes for belfast sinks , just make sure its for an integral overflow.
i have used a large screw driver (very large) in the past to hold the waste still while i unscrewed the nut and it came out ok but it wasnt an impossible tight nut to begin with (put the screw driver through the grille then through the over flow hole on the threaded shank), if you find it is just cut it off.
remove the sink, sit it upside down on a blanket on the ground and angle grind the nut off being careful not to go into the washer or the sink. these old sinks are quite tough but can crack so be careful.
if you dont fancy the idea of doing this you can saw it off , if you cant be asred to do either buy some jointing compound , wait for the leak to be perfectly dry and clean the area, get the compound to a nice warm temperature to make it nice and sticky and plaster it around the leaking bits area.You might get away with it , you might not.

 

[robgil]

keeping the waste still while trying to move a tight nut can be interesting so sometimes its just easier to cut and replace.

How strong are the radial metal bits in the plug-hole grating? Would it be possible to prevent the whole fitting from turning by banging some large nails (say) into a bit of 4x2 and then place the protruding nails into the plug hole to prevent the grating, and thus the whole fitting, from rotating when pressure is applied to the underneath nut.

Pure conjecture though, I've never tried anything like that myself.

that would probably work if the timber was long enough to wedge against the edge of the sink.

 

[Tom]

Well, I think this is a good example of where not to start if attempting DIY plumbing.

Well, I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I started my attempt at DIY plumbing by putting in a new trap and getting the pipe out of the wall; a job I managed to do very well and with little trouble. This is a whole new issue. And please don't tell me that had I called a plumber s/he would have checked the waste didn't leak first because I wouldn't believe that at all.

Even so, I'm still going to try and finish this job myself. And if I can't and I have to call someone else in...at least I've tried. And I won't let it dent my confidence