Floor tiles? Pamments?

[fluffytail10]

Thanks for that Penners, yes I shall certainly let you all know what he says. They were recommended by someone at one of these green building fairs but I guess that could mean diddly-squat!

Have you any idea what questions I should ask? what things would show he knows what he's talking about?

thanks again for advice
xx :wink:

 

[AMc]

With a stone surface you could grind off/wear down the surface to expose flat new stone.
Pamments/floor bricks etc have a hard surface that is created when the clay is fired. If you grind that off you will end up with a porous soft surface that will flake, crumble and wear very fast regardless of how its sealed.

With removing the screed the main thing is to try and lift it upwards so it cracks not bash it down.
The tools you use will be dictated by the space you have available.
I used a bolster as Penners linked and a small lump hammer to get a start then worked a flat pry bar underneath and used that to lever the cement upwards.
A pry bar
http://www.screwfix.com/p/utility-bar-7-sumo/72826

If you use a more normal "wrecking bar" with a thinner bar then you will put more pressure on the bricks below as you lever which is more likely to crack them.
All these tools may or may not suit the area you're working in and to be honest some breakage is inevitable. I had a few 9x9s that were bedded on sharp sand, weren't covered with anything and appeared to be perfect but fell into to pieces when lifted with my fingers

 

[Penners]

A pry bar
http://www.screwfix.com/p/utility-bar-7-sumo/72826

AMc's pry bar idea looks much better than my thoughts about a slate ripper. Good plan!

 

[MdB]

You can also put bits of wood under the pry bar to help protect the pamments and spread the load where possible.

 

[robgil]

Dont get anybody to skim the face off your pamments, the colour and texture is only face deep , they then begin to look awful.
Still plastering , but I will get some photos to show you what I mean.

 

[robgil]

Here they are, you can see the thin ones which I presume are the oldest then they seem to get gradually bigger and thicker.
The bulk of the pamment seems to be made up of lots of different colours but the face seems to be just one, remove the face and you end up with a swirly pattern, I dont know how thick the face layer is but I have seen it worn off under foot I presume in areas of heavy traffic.

This is the brick flooe I found in my kitchen.

 

[fluffytail10]

Yes I see what you mean by swirly - i don't like that much.

The man has just been and has said:
He will cut the overlying concrete with a saw-thing, into strips and then lever it off.
He will then leave it to dry for several weeks, sending a man round with a meter to check when its dried out.
Then he will clean it with a jet wash and seal it with a breathable acrylic.

He understood about how important keeping the patina is, did mention using a diamond head thing for cleaning off stuck on cement and rounding off broken edges. He knew about how important it is for the floor to be breathable and told me all about the history of pamments and was able to date the bricks in my fireplace, mentioning the brick tax and how sizes have changed over time. He seems quite knowledgable but of course he won't be the man doing the actual work!

I didn't quite understand how you could do all that cleaning and keep the patina or am I missing something?
I'm hoping to get another quote before making a decision though.

thanks xx

 

[fluffytail10]

Thanks for the photos robgil and what are you going to do with your floor? It looks wonderful :wink:

 

[MdB]

He will cut the overlying concrete with a saw-thing, into strips and then lever it off.

Ok if he doesn't go to deep. Not ok when he does and puts a line through a complete row of bricks. Remember the thickness of concrete is unlikely to be the same all across the floor.

He will then leave it to dry for several weeks, sending a man round with a meter to check when its dried out.

If it is going to be finished with a breathable finish, why does it need to dry? It will dry out anyway.

Then he will clean it with a jet wash

I'm not sure how good a jet wash would be - others might be able to comment. I also assume that this will be done before the floor is dried out.

and seal it with a breathable acrylic.

Such a product may exist but acrylic is plastic and normally completely non breathable.

diamond head thing for cleaning off stuck on cement and rounding off broken edges.

Probably quick but can potentially do a lot of damage. Depends on the skill of the operator.

Remember that there is probably a good reason why the concrete was put down so don't expect a perfect pamment floor underneath. Expect damage or missing sections.

The above is rather pessimistic and I didn't really intend it to come out that way. Just be aware of some potential issues.

 

[robgil]

Thanks for the photos robgil and what are you going to do with your floor? It looks wonderful :wink:

I will most likely put 20mm sharp sand over it, then a layer of a very dry limecrete then quarry tile over the top of it, its not a complete floor and to be honest it's way too much work for me at the moment, I have so much other more important work to do on the cottage this floor would just slow things down too much.
Perhaps one day I might dig it back up again and restore it properly.
re. the patina and not removing it, it might not be a patina as such but more staining from the concrete/cement, I would have thought the cleaner the floor the better.

 

[andrew gayton]

Remember that there is probably a good reason why the concrete was put down so don't expect a perfect pamment floor underneath. Expect damage or missing sections.

Yes. Fashion. And overly zealous mortgage surveyors and environmental health housing officers. Environmental health actually paid for my floors to be destroyed in 1982. Thankfully, the builder took the moneya nd ran by simply covering over with a thin brittle screed as opposed to the specified removal of covering/s and provision of a 3-layer floor with dpm. Aside from 1 or 2 casualties the floors were intact.

Checking for dampness with a handheld meter is indicative of a lack of understanding as is internal pressure washing and subsequent use of modern sealers. Even a slight reduction in vapour permeability will lead to saturation of the flooring with obvious consequences.

I recall that it took 3 of us 2 days to remove the screed using nothing more than a hammer and bolster, using methods already described above. the renewal of individual pammenst and bricks was minimal. the very damp floor - actual puddles in places - dried out within days to enable localised repair, regrouting (i wouldn't call it pointing as the joints were very very narrow) and finishing - not sealing - with the traditional mix of raw linseed oil and turpentine. The floor seems to improve year on year as the oil/turps 'poishes up' through use. the only downside is that it has to be swept as opposed to hooverd ............. if one can call that a downside.

don't let it be ruined............... a famous quote springs to mind here regarding a certain form of 19th c labour.

 

[rebeccac]

We've just laid a floor of 'mattone' in Italy.

1.dig out old floor a few feet and compact soil
2.add layer of rocks about10cms across
3. add layer of medium gravel 12cms deep
4.layer of roadbase compaced
5.layer of dry sand and lime 3cms
6.layer of bricks.

it took 4 years before we decided what to do.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

But so worth the wait. Will look stupendous when finished.

Is your website morto? Non sta funzionando stamattina.

 

[JoceAndChris]

The company explanation of how the floor will be stripped and cleaned sounds optimistic but I really hope that works out.

I'd want the name of the "breathable acrylic" and to do my own research on it. The pamments could be more gently cleaned with a hand scrub and sealed with a linseed oil, or an oil sealant like the one Liberon do for stone floors - a lovely product.

Good luck.

 

[AMc]

There probably isn't any real need to seal this kind of floor and a good clean and wax will be enough.
I'm a bit sceptical about a "breathable" acrylic - if you decide to seal them then I would recommend Osmo Polyx wax oil - that's what we used there are pictures around here somewhere.
I assume you let the floor dry out to
a)prove to yourself it does dry out not contain a natural spring
b)to allow the sealant to bond with the brick not float around on top of it.

I pressurewashed all my pamments and floor brick - but I took them up and did it in the garden - I'd be worried about the damage that would do to the base underneath and the amount of water you'll end up with indoors.

 

[Penners]

He will then leave it to dry for several weeks, sending a man round with a meter to check when its dried out.
Then he will clean it with a jet wash and seal it with a breathable acrylic.

So, if I've got this right, he'll leave the floor to dry for several weeks, checking its dryness with a meter. Then... and this is where my eyebrows raise... he'll soak it all again with a jetwash and then apply an acrylic sealer.

Hmmmm..... :?

I profess no expertise in this area, but I think that's the first time I've seen the words "breathable" and "acrylic" in the same sentence.

Did he tell you how long the acrylic sealer would last, and how you deal with the problem of it wearing through in high traffic areas?

To be honest, fluffytail10, I think there's a fair bit of putting the cart before the horse here. I reckon you have to take this a stage at a time. First, you need to know the condition of the floor under the concrete screed. After all, someone laid that screed for a reason, and in my limited experience the reason is usually that the floor underneath is in a poor condition. Sorry to be pessimistic, but there it is.

You don't want to pay this chap to come and do his stuff, only to find that - when the concrete is lifted - the floor underneath is badly broken up and worn.

I do recommend you to try and lift the screed carefully yourself. Only when you've done that will you really know what you're dealing with and which way to proceed.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I think that's very wise advice there Mr P.

I've been grateful to you from stopping me going looking for bricks and flagstones under concrete floors. It sounds like a lot of work and potential heartache.

One day, we hope to lift the concrete in the kitchen, and scullery. But only when there's a budget in place for a new breathable floor, and a borehole in the garden, in case the well in the concrete floor gets damaged or contaminated.

If I were fluffytail I'd be hoping for the best with this but also keeping an eye out for nice replacement pamments.

 

[fluffytail10]

hi all,
yes we're totally aware things under the concrete floor maybe awful. But the previous owners ripped out all the floorboards upstairs and replaced them with MDF - we found them in the garden and they were fine - or would have been if not left out in the garden for a couple of years. They have covered the ceilings in plaster board, leaving the old ceilings in place underneath. I think they just wanted a nice modern looking 'square' building, which is why I'm hoping they just wanted a nice flat floor, and threw the concrete down - personally I don't mind a bit of wibble, or cracking.

I too was concerned at the words acrylic and breathable but he assured me it's made by a dutch pamment manufacturer, and is definately breathable!

Well the quote should be with us by friday, so I guess that will be the decider. I'm quite prepared to remove the screed myself as it does appear that none of the concrete is actually attached to the pamments - rather it's on a layer of sand etc.

I'll let you know about the quote when it gets here,
many thanks for all your advice
xx

 

[JoceAndChris]

Keep us posted fluffytail! I hope it all comes off a treat, revealing a floor as pretty as the one pictured above.

 

[Penners]

I'll let you know about the quote when it gets here,

Yes, please do.

Meanwhile, if you were to buy yourself one of those wheeking prodgers recommended by AMc, you could have the concrete lifted by the time you have to make a decision on the quote. At the very least you'd save yourself the cost of someone else doing it. And you'd know what kind of a floor you're dealing with.