EU and imperial measures

[MdB]

I've yet to read a single valid point in this thread that supports getting rid of imperial measurements. Plenty of illogical argument, but not even one fact and logic based point that gives a reason to get rid of imperial.

One very simple very important advantage for metric is that they are a standard through out the world. Imperial measurements mean different things to different people.

For example how big is an acre?

is it 0.404 685 642 hectares? (common definition)
is it 0.334 450 944 hectares? (suburbs definition)
is it 0.404 687 263 hectare? (survey definition)
is it 0.655 5 hectares? (Ireland definition)

(data from here: http://www.onlineconversion.com/area.htm)

Sure the top one is what most people use but it isn't what all people use and the alternatives can a factor of 2 different!

When I talk about metric units (litres, km etc) then everyone knows exactly what I am talking about. If talk about imperial units (gallons, miles etc) then there is always the question of whos version of that unit you are using.

 

[Lime]

Better scrap the billion then. :roll:
I feel this is all such a trivial argument against a system that works and has worked for a lot longer than the last few decades.

 

[biffvernon]

(as witness spacecraft crashing into Mars).

Like we're so into building spaceships in our period properties.

 

[biffvernon]

However, and more pertinently, I know a windmill where some shades were re-fixed using metric bolts instead of the original imperials. The error was discovered after a shade fell off.

 

[Flyfisher]

I feel this is all such a trivial argument against a system that works and has worked for a lot longer than the last few decades.

On that basis there would never be any change because the old [insert example here] will always have worked longer than anything new, by definition.

But times change!

Any measurement system will work perfectly well in relative isolation. I could invent a new measurement system, build my own measuring tools and use them perfectly well in my own workshop without any problems - until I needed to communicate with anyone not using my measurement system.

But things change and the 'unit of isolation' is now, effectively, the entire world so it makes sense and is logical to have a single measurement system. We're not quite there yet but it is bound to happen, in much the same way that a single language will eventually emerge as the only sensible solution to the global population being able to freely communicate.

If we ever get to meet ET we may have to reconsider our standards again, but until then I suspect the metric system will meet the needs of our 'global village'.

I can't understand why people who have directly experienced the 20th century - a period of unprecedented technological change - can remain so resistant to changes in our measurement units.

Nostalgia? Insecurity? Inflexibility? Even jingoism perhaps?
It really is quite strange.

 

[Lime]

I can't understand why people who have directly experienced the 20th century - a period of unprecedented technological change - can remain so resistant to changes in our measurement units.

Your argument is confused.
Technological change brought about the need for various alternative measuring systems in the first place, not the other way round.
The 20th century lived with a great many systems very successfully.
Now, all of a sudden, in the 21st century we can't cope?
What nonesense.

What you propose is the abandonment of a system that still has its uses on the rather weak argument that it is confusing and old.
What for?
If they could cope in the past we can cope now.

What is really at the bottom of all this pressure to have only one system is money, profit and worldwide sales and very little to do with technological change.

 

[Craig]

So, those imperial bolts? Should they have been BSWhitworth, BSF, BSC, AUC, BA, BSP or maybe one of the non-standard metric threads?

 

[Lime]

So, those imperial bolts? Should they have been BSWhitworth, BSF, BSC, AUC, BA, BSP or maybe one of the non-standard metric threads?

If you have ever used just some of the variety of imperial threads you will realise that they have a purpose that the standard metric thread just cannot realise.

It would appear that in the 21st century the pinnacle of design will pivot around the metric thread and it's limitations.

 

[Flyfisher]

I can't understand why people who have directly experienced the 20th century - a period of unprecedented technological change - can remain so resistant to changes in our measurement units.

Your argument is confused.

On the contrary, this very thread proves the resistance to change that I find so odd.

I'm only flying the flag for SI units as it appears to be the only system with an international backing. I think it's more important to have a single system than what the system actually is, in much the same way that a single, global language would make communications easier and less error-prone.

It'll happen though. Probably not in our lifetimes, because of the sorts of feelings expressed in this thread, but within a few generations such things will be consigned to history along with all the other various extinct measurements that have been described above.

 

[Craig]

Hi Lime - I often get to use these threads, so appreciate the flexibility - but also the confusion!

 

[DaveBrigg]

It might happen sooner than you think, with a few isolated exceptions. For years now, children have left school with no teaching of imperial measurements at all. Road distances look likely to still be measured in miles, and horse-racing will keep its traditions, but today's pupils are taught to cook in metric, in PE all athletics events use metric, all maths problems are metric, and in technology feet and inches don't get a look in. Our 7 yr old son only knows his body measurements in centimetres and kilograms.
Having never been taught about rods, poles and furlongs, or even lbs and oz's myself, I wouldn't find it easy to pass on this information either. Last year I asked at work how much a penny was worth in old money, and even those who remembered decimalisation struggled to recall how the previous system worked.

 

[Nemesis]

http://www.tclayton.demon.co.uk/dec.html


A quid's worth of pennies in real money bought a lot of farthing chews and many, many trips for a pee.

Far more pees than you get with your pees these days - only a 100 in new money.

 

[NT]

> We're not quite there yet but it is bound to happen, in much the same way that a single language will eventually emerge

heh, people have long said that. Its never happened though, people dont choose it. Maybe the world is a bit more complex than some imagine.


> What you propose is the abandonment of a system that still has its uses on the rather weak argument that it is confusing and old.

If anyone is confused by a common measurement system, perhaps the confusion does not lie in the measurement system!


> I think it's more important to have a single system

Its bizarre. People always offer the same old minor advantages in support of this, overlooking the real and in some cases bigger issues. There are valid reasons why the world has not unified in language, measurement or currency, and to be plain about it has no interest of doing so.


> It'll happen though. Probably not in our lifetimes, because of the sorts of feelings expressed in this thread, but within a few generations such things will be consigned to history along with all the other various extinct measurements that have been described above.

Really? Metric has been around more than a few generations, as have various measurement systems, but it still aint happening. I think its just that some people just dont understand why.

If the metric system had never been introduced into this country, then I might agree with you.

But it has, and so long as we continue to run the two systems side-by-side we increase the risk of confusion and error (as witness spacecraft crashing into Mars).

So, that implies getting rid of one of the two systems.

The illogic goes on.


NT

 

[Flyfisher]

> We're not quite there yet but it is bound to happen, in much the same way that a single language will eventually emerge

heh, people have long said that. Its never happened though, people dont choose it. Maybe the world is a bit more complex than some imagine.

The past is not a good guide to what will happen in the future because circumstances today have not existed before. The world has never been so 'small', communication has never been easier or travel so cheap. All these things are powerful drivers towards standardisation. Consider how regional accents and dialects died out as people became more mobile; they didn't choose it, but it happened.

There are valid reasons why the world has not unified in language, measurement or currency, and to be plain about it has no interest of doing so.

Er, what valid reasons? I'm sure there are plenty of people who just don't like change but I don't really consider that a valid reason. So the Euro was not a step towards a unified currency? Global commercial transactions in US$, irrespective of the countries involved, is not a similar move towards that end?

> It'll happen though. Probably not in our lifetimes, because of the sorts of feelings expressed in this thread, but within a few generations such things will be consigned to history along with all the other various extinct measurements that have been described above.

Really? Metric has been around more than a few generations, as have various measurement systems, but it still aint happening. I think its just that some people just dont understand why.

So what happened to all those measurement systems that are no longer used and now largely forgotten except as historical curiosities? Why is it that they can disappear from common usage over time but feet and inches, pounds and ounces are somehow immune? The trend is clear even if the timescale is not.

 

[NT]

>>> We're not quite there yet but it is bound to happen, in much the same way that a single language will eventually emerge

>> heh, people have long said that. Its never happened though, people dont choose it. Maybe the world is a bit more complex than some imagine.

> The past is not a good guide to what will happen in the future because circumstances today have not existed before. The world has never been so 'small', communication has never been easier or travel so cheap.

true

> All these things are powerful drivers towards standardisation.

only upto a point

> Consider how regional accents and dialects died out as people became more mobile; they didn't choose it, but it happened.

but again only so far. There is no sign of the UK vs US dialect difference vanishing, nor UK vs Fr, etc.


>> There are valid reasons why the world has not unified in language, measurement or currency, and to be plain about it has no interest of doing so.

> Er, what valid reasons?

They've been covered in this thread already. Ease of mental division by a large number of commonly used divisors is one of the prime ones, and imperial standardisation in some areas is the other (ie the things that follow on from this). Lesser but also valuable reasons are ease of approx length measurement without instruments (1 yard = 1 pace), the fact that the units fit some tasks better, (just as metric units also do for some tasks) and the existing knowledge base.


> So the Euro was not a step towards a unified currency? Global commercial transactions in US$, irrespective of the countries involved, is not a similar move towards that end?

Is US considering converting to euros? Is EU converting to $? Neither is or has any interest in doing so.

There are good reasons not to.


> It'll happen though. Probably not in our lifetimes, because of the sorts of feelings expressed in this thread, but within a few generations such things will be consigned to history along with all the other various extinct measurements that have been described above.

i get the impression you dont know the reasons why the world doesnt use one curency.


>> Really? Metric has been around more than a few generations, as have various measurement systems, but it still aint happening. I think its just that some people just dont understand why.

> So what happened to all those measurement systems that are no longer used and now largely forgotten except as historical curiosities?

I think we know what happened There is no logical reason to claim this enlargement of the geographical areas of standards will inevitably result in enlargement to the whole world, any more than to say the existance of 4 blade razors will inevitably lead to 1,000,000 blade razors. Its simply a false argument, and ignores the real issues.

Its the same argument as saying if I've fallen 10 floors without harm I'll fall forever without harm. Off a finite sized building. Taking it ad adbsurdam is the classic way to show the fallacy of false arguments.


> Why is it that they can disappear from common usage over time but feet and inches, pounds and ounces are somehow immune? The trend is clear

It is. So it is with razor blades. Unfortunately the trend can be misunderstood.


NT

 

[ljn]

Nice joke about the tower, Penners.
But if anything, in favor of going metric as the tower of Pisa dates back to 1173- a tad before metric system was introduced even in Italy.

At least they learnt the lesson and the floors in Italian period buildings tend to be level while most uk ones- well at least London ones have sunk due to lack of foundations, exactly like the leaning tower of Pisa, but 700 or odd years before. Subsidence here is considered normal.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

However, and more pertinently, I know a windmill where some shades were re-fixed using metric bolts instead of the original imperials. The error was discovered after a shade fell off.

That was down to laziness in buying off the peg B&Q fixings for something that needs a bit more care. An excellent illustration of why you really need to study the details of what you're repairing before you get your toolkit out.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

In Pisa they went metric a long time ago.

That's hardly a reassuring argument in favour of the metric system!

Whereas in Britain, with good old Imperial...

 

[Nemesis]

So no advert for either system then?

 

[Flyfisher]

> Consider how regional accents and dialects died out as people became more mobile; they didn't choose it, but it happened.

but again only so far. There is no sign of the UK vs US dialect difference vanishing, nor UK vs Fr, etc.

. . . only so far because the process has only had so long and it needs more time.

Is US considering converting to euros? Is EU converting to $? Neither is or has any interest in doing so.

I agree . . . at present. But imagine having a discussion about the Euro, or even the EU, 100 years ago; it would have been inconceivable, but it happened and the drivers that made it happen still exist and continue to exert their effects.

Its the same argument as saying if I've fallen 10 floors without harm I'll fall forever without harm. Off a finite sized building. Taking it ad adbsurdam is the classic way to show the fallacy of false arguments.

Not really. Your example extrapolates to an impossiblility thus showing the fallacy of the example. My assertion extrapolates to a single global currency, which is clearly not an impossibility.

But let's agree to disagree; besides, the timescale is such that we'll never know for sure, either way.