EU and imperial measures

[Lime]

Common sense is a subjective thing.

What I meant by it was that to throw away a measuring scale (36 inches) that can be so easily divided by those numbers by a scale of 1000 that cannot be divided by them (except 4) seems to fly in the face of common sense.

Personally I use both systems dependant on what suits me and the situation at the time.
Maths has never bothered me.
Even now when I get a pane of glass cut I take the measurement in inches.
Not for my benefit but for the glass cutter as I've had too many mistakes made by them.
Even a few young ones prefer inches to mm.
Give some of them measurements in cms or metres with a decimal point and they are completely flummoxed.

Another aspect that the imperial system of measurement had, which the metric does not, is that the inch was often subdivided into many different parts, 4th, 8ths, 16ths, 32ths, 64ths and 3rds, 6ths etc as well as 10ths.
All very useful subdivisions for particular applications.

 

[piper]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the reason the Romans were not as good as the Greeks in scientific endeavours was that you can't do maths with roman numerals!

The Greeks were better (perhaps) at abstract theory, but the Romans could certainly do the practical calculation. Of course a lot of the highly educated technical specialists they employed were probably Greek anyway, but for calculation Romans used the abacus, and I believe the speeds obtainable with one of those even now by practiced (e.g.) Chinese users are quite phenomenal.

 

[piper]

While I'm adding my two-penn'orth, I'm like Biff, Lime and others, I use millimetres and even decimal parts of millimetres for accurate & workshop use - can't be doing with thou's, 64ths, 32nds etc - and on the whole prefer feet to cms or hundreds of mms, & I certainly prefer miles and pints. As for OS maps - well you just got used to what a mile felt like and what an inch looked like, though I much prefer the 1:50000 maps to the old one-inch ones - they're bigger and easier to see.

 

[NT]

I find the whole unit fascism movement quite bizarre, and such fascists always seem to be metric fans. Just one of the downsides of metric units I suppose.

Anyone who works with both unit systems doesnt take long to find that both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, and soon chooses which is best for various different situations. To try to get rid of one of them seems to me a bit foolish.

And it wont happen either, not in any of our lifetimes at least. Despite what the unit fascists say, imperial units are standard in both America and in many applications Britain too, and elsewhere in the world. The fascist dream of only one (metric) system of measurement used by all is a false one, because
a) it will never happen and is thus not a real world advantage of metrix
b) nor is it even a reason to pick either one system over the other.

If you tell Americans how metric is taking over from bad imperial they'll just think youre a nut.

The failure to teach imperial units in schools just shows how foolish our school system has become, or is. Sadly British state schools fail to teach a whole array of key life skills today.

One of the original reasons for the introduction of the imperial system was the ease with which measurements could be divided. Whereas metric can only easily be divided by 2 and 10, imperial can be divided easily by 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12. Ease of division translates to less mental work, less time taken, less mistakes and less consequent material waste.

Anyone who thinks either system should be abolished would be wise to learn and try working with both first.


NT

 

[NT]

Re your tablespoon

Bateman. Would need to look up date, but it has certainly the head of the British monarch on it...

sounds a bit unhygienic


NT

 

[DaveBrigg]

Fascism 1. Any ideology or movement inspired by Italian fascism such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism.
2. any ideaology, movement, programme, tendency, etc that may be characterised as right-wing, chauvanist, authoritarian, etc (C20: from Italian fascismo...) - Collins English Dictionary

I assume the reference was not intended for any member of this forum and the irony of the BNP supporting the 'metric martyrs' was unintentional.

Whereas metric can only easily be divided by 2 and 10, imperial can be divided easily by 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12.
NT

The above is only true of measurements of length, and then only those above an inch. Divide a foot by ten and you get 1 and 1/5 inches, which is fine if you can find a ruler with suitable divisions.
What is a pint divided by 12? (using the British 20 fluid ounces rather than the American 16)
If a pound of flour makes 10 cakes, can I accurately weigh enough for one?
The problem seems to come when the smallest unit of measure is not small enough. The choice is then fractions, and the problem of how to measure them, or use a decimal system anyway (2.3 miles, rather than 2 miles, 195 1/2 yards)
Like Morris dancing and riding on steam trains there is still a time and place for imperial measures, but when giving medicine to my children I'll use ml, and stick to millimetres when measuring the gap to be filled at the top of the door.

 

[ian]

U.K. imperial versus vs. old English and so called metric is not even the scratch on the surface, S.I. units for international convention? Troy and adverdupois measures, US imperial. There are more ways of measuring a somthing than most of us could even think of. We are not alone in variations. In French markets it is still possible to buy by the "livre",or pound. Is a "demi du vin" a alf bottle or a half litre? The practical approach as Biff points out must be our guide. Many of us e speak foreign languages to help us be understood elsewhere, why cannot we be more able to converse freely between units systems as we are with language. Different tasks reqire different measurement systems. PSI or bars for tyre pressures?

Anyone know the metric conversion for a gnats whisker by the way?

 

[NT]

Fascist has a wider meaning than just an italian political party these days. The hallmark of fascism is a political system that takes a political stance and attempts to destroy all opposition. This is what the ardent proponents of metric are about.


> - Collins English Dictionary

one of many


>> Whereas metric can only easily be divided by 2 and 10, imperial can be divided easily by 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12.

> The above is only true of measurements of length, and then only those above an inch.

Last time I checked my ruler I could swear it had divisions of 1/2", 1/4", 1/8", 1/10th", 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64"

Yep, still on there.


> Divide a foot by ten and you get 1 and 1/5 inches, which is fine if you can find a ruler with suitable divisions.

Nearly all imperial rulers have 1/10ths of an inch, since its something of a standard. 1.2" is a no brainer.


> What is a pint divided by 12?

0.08 pint? But who cares?


> If a pound of flour makes 10 cakes, can I accurately weigh enough for one?

I dont know, can you divide 14 oz by 10? Do you mix fairy cakes singly? Take 0.168 eggs....


> The problem seems to come when the smallest unit of measure is not small enough. The choice is then fractions, and the problem of how to measure them,

How one measures a distance has little to do with what units are used AFAICS. The one possible exception might be that a yard is a much better fit for a good pace than a metre.


> there is still a time and place for imperial measures, but when giving medicine to my children I'll use ml, and stick to millimetres when measuring the gap to be filled at the top of the door.

Quite. Let both live.


NT

 

[Penners]

Common sense is a subjective thing.

The trouble with common sense is that it isn't very common.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

While I'm adding my two-penn'orth, I'm like Biff, Lime and others, I use millimetres and even decimal parts of millimetres for accurate & workshop use - can't be doing with thou's, 64ths, 32nds etc - and on the whole prefer feet to cms or hundreds of mms, & I certainly prefer miles and pints.

And though the thing that annoys me most is mixing the two systems (as a child I drew imaginary buildings at a scale of 1cm to the foot :shock: ), I do think cold weather sounds best in Centigrade, and warm in Farenheit.

As for OS maps - well you just got used to what a mile felt like and what an inch looked like, though I much prefer the 1:50000 maps to the old one-inch ones - they're bigger and easier to see

Well, you can now get the old maps metricated (and very good they are too, with the OS National Grid added):

http://www.cassinimaps.co.uk/

 

[Penners]

Another aspect that the imperial system of measurement had, which the metric does not, is that the inch was often subdivided into many different parts, 4th, 8ths, 16ths, 32ths, 64ths and 3rds, 6ths etc as well as 10ths.

But surely that just shows how ingrained you are with the old imperial system. If you're talking about divisibility, what could be easier than just moving a decimal point?

Try using a calculator to divide an inch into, say, 7 parts, then transfer the result on to your imperial tape measure.

 

[GK]

On an Ordnance Survey 1:50000 map grid lines are 2cm apart, representing 1km on the ground. Grid references can be instantly calculated to within 100 metres, or to within 10 metres for those with good eyesight and a decent ruler......Was this process similar for a 1 inch to the mile map?

And on an Ordnance Survey One Inch to One Statute Mile the map grid lines are c. 1.5cm apart, representing 1km on the ground. Grid references can be instantly calculated to within 100 metres,in fact instructions are given on the map legend of the old one-inch maps.

OS maps have had a metric grid long before they were scaled in metric.

 

[Lime]

Another aspect that the imperial system of measurement had, which the metric does not, is that the inch was often subdivided into many different parts, 4th, 8ths, 16ths, 32ths, 64ths and 3rds, 6ths etc as well as 10ths.

But surely that just shows how ingrained you are with the old imperial system. If you're talking about divisibility, what could be easier than just moving a decimal point?

Try using a calculator to divide an inch into, say, 7 parts, then transfer the result on to your imperial tape measure.

No, no, no! You are missing the point!

Real work in the real world doesn't use a calculator while holding up a tape measure against a wall when marking out.
If you want to divide an length/area by 3, let's say, then you use your head.
Dividing something measured in imperial (36 or 12) in your head by 3 is a lot simpler than when using something metric based on 1000.
But it all depends on the length that you are measuring.
Sometimes cms are much more useful than inches.
As for moving the decimal point what purpose would that serve unless dividing by 10?

Taking your example of dividing 7 into an inch.
When would you do that? Measuring up?
If you were using a tape measure on a wall then using metric or imperial may be just as difficult as each other.
If you are lucky one may be more easily divided by 7 than the other but that is it.
Neither system lends itself to being easily divided by 7.
So it is nothing to do with "being ingrained" it is much more to do with being practical in a practical physical situation.

As I've said before I'm quite prepared to use either method or any other for that matter if it makes work easier with fewer mistakes.

 

[MdB]

And on an Ordnance Survey One Inch to One Statute Mile the map grid lines are c. 1.5cm apart, representing 1km on the ground. Grid references can be instantly calculated to within 100 metres,in fact instructions are given on the map legend of the old one-inch maps.

OS maps have had a metric grid long before they were scaled in metric.

Almost all maps have grid lines that are 10km, 1km, 100m or 10m etc apart. This includes all OS maps as GK says and most road atlases. It makes working out distances very easy (in metric of course). The exceptions are A-Z maps and some road atlases which always annoys me when I come to use them.

 

[Penners]

Real work in the real world doesn't use a calculator

Unfortunately that's where you're wrong.

The generation that I (and I venture to guess, you) belong to was taught to do mental arithmetic. Today's generation is not. So calculators are most definitely used in the real world - all the time.

Anyway, even using the brain rather than the calculator, dividing a dimension by three in the metric world is a doddle, isn't it?

 

[Nemesis]

Key Stage 2 tests and teacher assessments
Key Stage 2 tests for 11 year olds cover:

English - reading, writing (including handwriting) and spelling
maths - including mental arithmetic
science
These tests are taken on set days in mid-May, and last less than five-and-a-half hours altogether.

The teacher assessment covers:

English
maths
science
By the age of 11, most children are expected to achieve level 4.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Schoolslearninganddevelopment/ExamsTestsAndTheCurriculum/DG_10013041

 

[DaveBrigg]

Fascist has a wider meaning than just an italian political party these days. The hallmark of fascism is a political system that takes a political stance and attempts to destroy all opposition. This is what the ardent proponents of metric are about.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' (Alice in Wonderland) Personally, of the two books I'll stick with Collins.

On closer inspection my ruler does have tenths of inches measured, although that section is added to the end of the metric side, there not being enough room for it amongst the eights, twelfths and sixteenths. I stand corrected. 'I don't know' and 'Who cares' are also very instructive responses.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting sending in the thought police to confiscate Biff's pencil if he marks out wood in inches, but it is helpful to have a nationally accepted standard which can be used and understood by all people.

 

[Nemesis]

I'm innumerate, and frankly don't understand any of it.

Hvae you ever innocently started a thread and wished you hadn't?

I only am thankful all those restored fingerposts won't be scrapped.

 

[Lime]

but it is helpful to have a nationally accepted standard which can be used and understood by all people

That's where feet and inches succeed.
A foot and an inch are readily understood by the average person not well versed in maths nor equiped with a rule.

 

[MdB]

That's where feet and inches succeed.
A foot and an inch are readily understood by the average person not well versed in maths nor equiped with a rule.

Why is an inch and foot any easier to understand / visulise than 1mm, 10mm, 100mm and 1m? A foot in length is nothing like the average adults actual foot length (about 9.4 inches or 240 mm) and an inch just means 25.4mm to me.

Take a look at the conversion from Pounds, Shillings and Pence to the current currency system. At the time there were a lot of people who complained about the change over (so I am told - I was two at the time) but who now thinks it was good easy system to use?