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Hi all,
Thought I would join in the fun! Having trawled through local auction houses over the years I have managed to catch quite a few bargains, but my favourite has to be this 16/17th century chest. I originally went to the auction to by antiquarian books (which is my main interest) but came back with this chest and no books!
Just to mention, If anyone has any antiquarian books for sale pre 1800 then let me know
Welcome to the how shall i say it... nut house? heheheoldstuff said:
Hi all,
Thought I would join in the fun! Having trawled through local auction houses over the years I have managed to catch quite a few bargains, but my favourite has to be this 16/17th century chest. I originally went to the auction to by antiquarian books (which is my main interest) but came back with this chest and no books!
Just to mention, If anyone has any antiquarian books for sale pre 1800 then let me know
Its great to have another face on the forum now i don't feel quite so new!!
WOW!!!
That is just simply stunning!!!
So intricate too its lovely...
I found an old battered chest in my out house needless to say it was more of a pirates chest .. i have just finished cleaning it up and waxing it it is now the home for my chrsitmas decorations!
Nigel Watts
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oldstuff said:
Are you sure it is really that old? There was a fashion in the 19th C for doing this kind of naive carving, often to older pieces. My uncle had an old oak dresser which had been carved later in this kind of style.
I'm afraid I would put my money on it being Victorian carving and on it not being as old as you suggest. Still an interesting and decorative peice though.
oldstuff said:
I have recently started buying books at auction. Know any good but not too expensive restorers? I had an octavo volume (1740s, original full calf) with detatched front board restored recently by Shepherds in Victoria. They did a beautiful job but it cost far more than the book was worth.
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Bargains dont alway turn out be as cheap as you at first think. I got this at auction in Nottingham for what I believed was a very good price. Having chosen the upholstery material (thanks for the help Joce!) my restorer started to strip it and has just given me a call. The whole thing is riddled with worm, two legs are about to fall off and the thing has been botched up with screws and coach bolts. It was only holding together it would seem becasue of the numerous layers of upholstery underneath which had never been properly stripped back. He is going to have to build a completely new inner frame to reinforce it.
It's a nice piece though and worth restoring I am sure, but it wont have been anything like as much of a bargain by the time it is finished.
It's a nice piece though and worth restoring I am sure, but it wont have been anything like as much of a bargain by the time it is finished.
Nigel Watts said:
Hi Nigel,
Yes I know what you mean, those pesky Victorians liked to copy, but lucky for me this is 100% legit
I do know a little about antique furniture + I have had a couple of experts look at it over the years and they agree that it's fine, even the door hinges are the original loop type!I also know how much it costs to have a book rebound and sadly you all too often have to weigh up this cost against the worth of the book. Incidentally the oldest book I have in my collection is Ovid's Heroides (Helen of troy etc) and was printed in 1527 but even at this great age is not worth a huge amount.
Regards
Jason
Nigel Watts
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My little volume, Swift's Tale of a Tub - not a rare edition - has a fine bookplate and the ownership marks of a direct ancestor, so I was prepared to spend a bit more on restoring it that it was worth.
My oldest volume is from the 1670s or thereabouts so you beat me by a century and a half!
Your piece of furniture still puzzles me I must say. Why would a furniture maker go to the trouble of making the piece so nicely (mitre jointed panel, nice straight mouldings etc) only to carve it in such an unsophisticated way? But this is just my instinct, which has often led me astray, and I make no claims to be an expert.
My oldest volume is from the 1670s or thereabouts so you beat me by a century and a half!
Your piece of furniture still puzzles me I must say. Why would a furniture maker go to the trouble of making the piece so nicely (mitre jointed panel, nice straight mouldings etc) only to carve it in such an unsophisticated way? But this is just my instinct, which has often led me astray, and I make no claims to be an expert.
philpjuk100
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Hi we bought a chest/coffer off ebay,watched it and when it failed to sell made an offer which was accepted,it seems quite old,it has three large planks for a top,the remains of an old lock and the remains of a small compartment at one end,not sure it could be considered a bargain (paid just under £300 + carriage)but am uncertain of its age,any ideas?phil.
philpjuk100 said:
Hi,
A nice piece and looks to have its original top too? Does it have it's original hinges? As mentioned in my previous post I'm no expert but would guess judging by the style and moldings that this chest dates from the time of Queen Anne i.e. early 1700's. £300 is a good price for this
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The hinges seem to have been replaced with three butt type hinges,probably a long time ago,although the blacksmith made parts of the original hinges on the lid and back are still there but the bits that hook together have been cut off! and the top planks have been reinforced with two newer braces,but again a long time ago.We bought it because it was useful and fitted the space we had available but have grown to love it and if it is early 1700s its about the right age for the house,thanks,phil.
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Hmm. I'm going to be the party pooper again. There is something which does not quite ring true for me about this either. Why has the lock been placed in a panel? And the placing of those split turnings on the uprights? And what's going on with the planks on the bottom?
The style is certainly 1690-1700 ish, but did these bits start off life as a chest like this? Is this some old panelling which has been converted into a chest perhaps?
The style is certainly 1690-1700 ish, but did these bits start off life as a chest like this? Is this some old panelling which has been converted into a chest perhaps?
philpjuk100
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Could be,if so it is all quite dirty and must have been done a long time ago,(or I may have been"Lovejoyed"!)the lock has been replaced at some time,there is another keyhole behind the lockplate,It has had a hard life with evidence of repairs/modifications.Does the job though and cost less than a more modern repro one! Phil.
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Having inherited and bought quite a number of antiques which turned out to be not quite what they seemed I have a rather suspicious mind when it comes to assessing authenticity.
Things very often get altered or "improved": my late 18th C roll top desk with its later inlaid bandings, handles and marquetery; my William IV/early Victorian chiffoniere cut down and rehandled and re-escutcheoned to make it look Regency; my 1800ish dining table having its legs turned and banding added to make it look more important; my 18th C longcase clock which is not a merely a marriage of two different pieces, but a positive harem. I think my 18th C tallboy is OK, as are my Regency/William IV dining and bergere chairs, Victorian sofa and worm-eaten chaise longue. About 50% of my collection is therefore suspect - a ratio which has only reduced recently as a result of more judicious buying.
I read the view of one furniture expert somewhere that only a very small proportion of antiques are really in original condition. Of course if a piece has been altered it does not mean it should not be admired or cherished, and not all alterations will have been done by unscrupulous dealers, but if the statistics are as that expert suggested one's initial hypothesis when looking at antique for sale should be that it is not right and if one's nose twitches the probability is that is not without reason.
Things very often get altered or "improved": my late 18th C roll top desk with its later inlaid bandings, handles and marquetery; my William IV/early Victorian chiffoniere cut down and rehandled and re-escutcheoned to make it look Regency; my 1800ish dining table having its legs turned and banding added to make it look more important; my 18th C longcase clock which is not a merely a marriage of two different pieces, but a positive harem. I think my 18th C tallboy is OK, as are my Regency/William IV dining and bergere chairs, Victorian sofa and worm-eaten chaise longue. About 50% of my collection is therefore suspect - a ratio which has only reduced recently as a result of more judicious buying.
I read the view of one furniture expert somewhere that only a very small proportion of antiques are really in original condition. Of course if a piece has been altered it does not mean it should not be admired or cherished, and not all alterations will have been done by unscrupulous dealers, but if the statistics are as that expert suggested one's initial hypothesis when looking at antique for sale should be that it is not right and if one's nose twitches the probability is that is not without reason.
philpjuk100
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Strange though it may seem I prefer items which have signs of having a hard life! we have plates which have been broken and riveted together,furniture which has been repaired even old cars and motorcycles which have been modified or modernised which I will not restore to originality,these all had a life and show it! I find some motor museums "sterile" with the vehicles in better nick than that in which they left the factory. The 1965 Mike Hailwood MV with which he crashed,fixed with a hammer and still beat agostini to win the senior TT is now displayed as a perfect machine,all its history gone! I will still continue aquiring less than perfect items and if I can save a bit of cash all the better!phil.
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Yes I quite agree.philpjuk100 said:
However walking around the Sandringham Museum and seeing the limos with flat tyres is going over the top a bit I think.
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One of the hazards of living with antiques is that you can easily do lots of expensive-to-repair damage. This morning I just bumped the leg of my dining table with my foot and this was the result:
This leg has been repaired several times and it will need to be again.
The table was bought in the 1930s by my mother's great aunts who lived in some style in Richmond Yorkshire. My grandfather, a schoolmaster, inherited most of their furniture. Some he sold and the rest is now scattered amongst various members of the family. From the bits I have had a chance to examine, most of the pieces are a bit dodgy (I wonder who that Richmond antique dealer was - a right crook I expect). This table belonged to my uncle for a while. He taught at Dartmouth, where he was Prince Charles's tutor, who may well have eaten at this table.
I have never seen a table quite like this (another view below). The turned and carved legs look far too spindly and weak (hence the constant damage). I believe it would have had plain square legs which were later turned to make it look grander. The inlay on the apron (bits of which keep falling off) is saw-cut veneer so probably oldish, but is it original? I guess not.
I am now wondering what to do with it. I can get it repaired, but it is really too big for my house. Its four feet wide and can extend up to eight feet with a non matching extension made up from a different piece of furniture. My mother, who dined at in with her great aunts in the 30s, when everyone had to change into evening dress every night, would be upset if I sold it and I doubt I would get much for it.
This leg has been repaired several times and it will need to be again.
The table was bought in the 1930s by my mother's great aunts who lived in some style in Richmond Yorkshire. My grandfather, a schoolmaster, inherited most of their furniture. Some he sold and the rest is now scattered amongst various members of the family. From the bits I have had a chance to examine, most of the pieces are a bit dodgy (I wonder who that Richmond antique dealer was - a right crook I expect). This table belonged to my uncle for a while. He taught at Dartmouth, where he was Prince Charles's tutor, who may well have eaten at this table.
I have never seen a table quite like this (another view below). The turned and carved legs look far too spindly and weak (hence the constant damage). I believe it would have had plain square legs which were later turned to make it look grander. The inlay on the apron (bits of which keep falling off) is saw-cut veneer so probably oldish, but is it original? I guess not.
I am now wondering what to do with it. I can get it repaired, but it is really too big for my house. Its four feet wide and can extend up to eight feet with a non matching extension made up from a different piece of furniture. My mother, who dined at in with her great aunts in the 30s, when everyone had to change into evening dress every night, would be upset if I sold it and I doubt I would get much for it.
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Yes I think you are right,when you are buying, things are rare and expensive but when you come to sell they are common and cheap!but although its a nice to have antiques especially with family "heirloom"conections you have to live with them and if its too big then it may be time for a change,it would be terrible to get it repaired and then damage it again!phil.
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Yes I quite agree.
However walking around the Sandringham Museum and seeing the limos with flat tyres is going over the top a bit I think.[/quote]
Ah but the remaining air in the tyres is probably original air!none of this crap modern air!
However walking around the Sandringham Museum and seeing the limos with flat tyres is going over the top a bit I think.[/quote]
Ah but the remaining air in the tyres is probably original air!none of this crap modern air!
What a lovely table... whatever its origins may be its really different.Maybe if you are thinking of rehoming it you could politely tell your mother its just too big and suggest someone else in the family might like to be its care taker instead? Or simply say that its just getting damaged too often and maybe its time for it to reside in a calmer household where it wont get knocked and damaged?
but honestly if you really are thinking of rehoming it... even though it may be a family piece sometimes things have just got to give... maybe you could suggest selling it even and using the money towards something else of equal beauty that might appease the family? almost like swapping one heirloom for another.. i know the sentimental attachment wont be the same but sometimes we have to let go.
Its a beautiful table whatever you decide to do and i am sure you will make the right choice in the end
Good luck and its a shame what happened to the leg but hey look on the bright side .. you didnt break your toes! :wink:
but honestly if you really are thinking of rehoming it... even though it may be a family piece sometimes things have just got to give... maybe you could suggest selling it even and using the money towards something else of equal beauty that might appease the family? almost like swapping one heirloom for another.. i know the sentimental attachment wont be the same but sometimes we have to let go.
Its a beautiful table whatever you decide to do and i am sure you will make the right choice in the end
Good luck and its a shame what happened to the leg but hey look on the bright side .. you didnt break your toes! :wink: