Any Real experts here ?

[james.struc.eng]

I recently found myself spending a couple of hours browsing through various topics being discussed on this site, and whilst most of the discussion is trivial and inconsequential some of the advice being offered potentially makes this site a very dangerous place to be. The problem is that you have a few people putting forward some important structural and technical questions to another group of people who seem to be mostly well intentioned but lack the experience, qualifications and facts to be able to hand out any sort of meaningfull advice. Structural issues always require close and careful examination, offering someone advice regarding the replacement of a partially decayed timber lintel and such like based on photographs and a basic description is crazy and potentially dangerous. Because the general tone of the conversations taking place has a quasi professional ring I suspect that some people feel they are receiving free professional advice that can be relied on, as opposed to the reality which appears to be a mixed bag of personal opinions based on little or no actual professional experience. The problem is compounded by the fact that most contributors are anonymous, and the few people that do reveal their identity are doing so in the interests of self promotion, ownership of a web site may imply, but certainly does not prove any sort of competence. The internet provides endless amounts of information enabling any layman to cherry pick bits of information and put forward a convincing answer to all sorts of problems within the confines of a site like this, but there lies the danger. Can I suggest that if there are any professional regular contributors ( surveyors , engineers, architects and properly trained crafts people) who are prepared to stick their necks and professional indemnity insurance out, please identify yourselves as such, then folks looking for competent answers may have a little comfort and not be confused by the recycled opinions of the self appointed self promoting "experts".

 

[Nemesis]

I think you will find that although there's a lot of chat, and that's partly what the site is about, there's expertise too. No really dangerous advice is usually left on site - anyone posting such would have others with expertise posting to say so. There's always the PM system.

It's not really so anonymous, regular posters know who each other are, and I think you'll find much advice of the 'engage an architect/structural engineer/surveyor WITH APPROPRIATE HISTORIC BUILDINGS EXPERTISE' when required. There are plenty of those listed on the appropriate parts of this site, and SPAB, as is regularly stated, holds lists of those qualified to work with historic buildings, as does RICS.

Structural engineers - myself, I'd always recommend the saintly Brian Morton. The Morton Partnership.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

James - I think that is a little unfair - I have been posting here for a year or so, and can't recall any self-promotion from those who make their identities self-evident. Indeed it contravenes the site rules.

The fact that others will often praise crafts/tradespeople they have used on the site, or validate their advice (eg Biff on windows) is a way of informally kitemarking their status. It is unfair to suggest that identifiable posters like Biff are seeking any kind of promotion. I'd suggest spending a little more than a couple of hours reading the site if you want to get a real feel for it.

Whilst you raise an important point regarding advice at a distance, this applies to any community based website. The usual rules that I would imagine any semi-sentient being would be able to assimilate are:

a) turn off the power first;
b) if in any doubt seek professional advice;
c) caveat emptor (or whatever the latin for "advice-seeker" is)

I have often seen advice from knowledgeable posters to seek out professional advice, when it looks like the question warrants it.

I doubt there are (m)any coming here for advice for serious structural questions that won't also be seeking professional advice. I really don't think your profession is under threat from websites like this - or have I misunderstood the content of your post from the couple of minutes I spent reading it? :wink:

 

[Nemesis]

I think it fair to say that posting on this site there are some 'Real' experts, although sadly some don't always post as much as they used to for various reasons, but at times people don't wish to parade their identity on the internet.

However, we do have a former Chair of the RICS Conservation Group (now something else high in RICS - see Agony Uncle), the former Chair of SPAB Mills section and committee member, architects, CO's, conservationists, archaeologists, buildings historians, those who make their living from working with historic buildings... as well as many who have a great deal of practical expertise working on their own homes.

We also have friends in the 'business' of historic buildings who can be asked when required... but in general, we try, I feel, to give a pointer in the right direction as far as conservation and work on historic buildings is concerned, and when it's obvious that a question can't be answered without the involvement of a professional making a site visit, then usually we say so. Getting the right professional is the tricky part.

Some posters here are regulars, and aren't dropping in out of the blue either - and are simply seeking opinion, not definitive professional advice. They know who is who.

 

[biffvernon]

Any Real experts here ?

Yes. And when you have made a great many more than one, rather critical post, we may come to value your expertise too, perhaps even in the field of structural engineering.

Regulars here will know my views on structural engineers. Forget them if they start talking about steels - just put a massive oak beam in, it will last forever, sequester carbon and look much nicer.

Anyway, welcome to this lovely forum, James, and I do hope you will be able to make it even better. Of course if you have noticed people putting forward important structural and technical advice that is potentially very dangerous then surely your professional duty will be to add your wise opinion. Though you might become the subject of this:



Biff (who is not at all anonymous and is not trying to promote his website or gain more work through it but just enjoys a well chilled life).

 

[Nemesis]

That's from the Green Building Forum I recall - another where James might wish to vent his ire?

BTW - Biff's website is about far more than his window business! Although some of it seems to have vanished - was the lime ash stuff, the wooden guttering, and the windows pics, part of what Orange ate?

 

[biffvernon]

Yeah, it's about all this: http://www.tithefarm.biz/

 

[Nemesis]

True - although you aren't the only one with a website - Andrew, Gervase, Jon at the Merchant's House off the top of my head...

 

[Nemesis]

Found the windows pics - where's the lime ash stuff?

http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/window_gallery.htm

 

[biffvernon]

- was the lime ash stuff, the wooden guttering, and the windows pics, part of what Orange ate?

Hmmm - those bits should still be there.

 

[Nemesis]

Then there's this website (Joe, fjpdesigns) although I don't recall any self-promotion here, just sound advice from an expert:

http://www.pargeting.com/

 

[chuckey]

"Structural issues always require close and careful examination, offering someone advice regarding the replacement of a partially decayed timber lintel and such like based on photographs and a basic description is crazy and potentially dangerous".
Err, well yes and no, careful examination is required and no, the situation that is potentialy dangerous is to have a decayed lintel. You're right that to pull one out without having discussed the matter with others experienced in the art, would be foolhardy, but as evidenced here the wise take other peoples knowlege into account. You really should address your concerns to those who do not discuss their problems here.
The bit also I suspect you might be missing is the really poor construction of older propereties. I am sure that you did not learn how to rest lintels on window frames and rubble infill onto lath and plaster window recesses. There is a lot of vernacular "craft" in old buildings which has to be learnt on the job in that geographic region.
There is also a dearth of structural information on the materials used, so academic analysis of some old structures is impossible.

You aren't just touting for customers are you?
Frank

 

[Nemesis]

But let's face it - much of the 'poor' construction has survived, the buildings still stand...

(Well, OK, not all, but I think a structural engineer was involved in this one: http://taybridgedisaster.co.uk/index/index)

 

[Nemesis]

In fact - maye it's time some folk who give freely of their time to post here had a bit of promotion! And no I don't get anything out of 'promoting' them!

Look at all the lovely stuff here for example, I had never really delved beyong the pargeting:

http://www.pargeting.com/

and this:

http://www.andrew-bodenham.co.uk/

And Gervase:

http://www.horganandwebb.com


I know there are others!

 

[biffvernon]

(Well, OK, not all, but I think a structural engineer was involved in this one: http://taybridgedisaster.co.uk/index/index)

My point exactly. They should have used oak.
:lol:

 

[Nemesis]

And me being, amongst other things, a historian with an interest in historic structures and stuff, and also having an interest in pomes and books and arty farty things, I simply have to post this here:

http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/poems/pgdisaster.htm

 

[fjpdesigns]

Most kind Nemesis.
Self promotion would be rather fruitless me thinks, as probably 95% of contributors to this site seem to live outside my catchment area. I am just pleased to share any knowledge or experience I have.

 

[Nemesis]

Well, pargeting isn't big in Northumberand, I have to say, but it's beautiful stuff, and I love the sticks too. Stick dressing is still alive and well here, with many lovely examples shown still at country shows.

I must now conclude my lay
By telling the world fearlessly without the least dismay,
That your central girders would not have given way,
At least many sensible men do say,
Had they been supported on each side with buttresses,
At least many sensible men confesses,
For the stronger we our houses do build,
The less chance we have of being killed.

A warning from the poem linked to above - for any unwary structural engineer!!

 

[Nemesis]

Middi doesn't link to his website from here, but here it is:

http://middideluca.co.uk/

 

[Nemesis]

Gareth - no website, but a CO and architect and mills expert, does contribute hugely to Geograph:

http://www.geograph.org.uk/profile/717