Another telly makeover prog?

[Nemesis]

Bijou kitchens etc don't easily fit. Nor do en suites etc.

http://www.findaproperty.com/displaystory.aspx?edid=00&salerent=0&storyid=9733


http://www.barnsetc.co.uk/barn002.htm

That site makes me want to weep.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

What's the issue that many here have with people turning long since derelict mills into homes? Always been curious.

View attachment 1

Next question?

 

[Ian Bond]

I like what they've done with the trellis - it echos the structure of the sails, and is a lovely detail.

Pity about everything else - belongs in Blood Boiling corner with the others.
:evil:

 

[wobs]

What's the issue that many here have with people turning long since derelict mills into homes? Always been curious.

Because they remove all the working parts to make room for their furniture and won't settle for basic agricultural-standard suface finishes, so the end result loses all its essential millness.

ok, I get that, but a derelict mill tower could otherwise just fall down. Wouldn't it be better to convert it (using none of the "sins" that modern building uses) rather than let it decay? If the working parts are rotted away anyway, surely it would be better to encourage appropriate materials for a conversion rather than letting fall apart all together? Wouldn't that be the lesser of the two evils?

Surely its like the one of Grand Designs houses that took the shell of a ruin and turned it into a really nice house.

 

[Penners]

Gareth - talking of "essential millness", could you please tell me about windmill sails?

All of the windmills that I've seen (intact, this is) have sails that are a kind of skeleton structure - a bit like the wing ribs and stringers that I used to cut out of balsa wood to build Keil Kraft model aircraft, when I were a lad. Like this:

Do the sails function at all in this skeleton form, or do they always have to have fabric panels stretched across them, in order to work? Like this (Dutch - or did you perhaps guess that?!):

 

[Gareth Hughes]

What's the issue that many here have with people turning long since derelict mills into homes? Always been curious.

Because they remove all the working parts to make room for their furniture and won't settle for basic agricultural-standard suface finishes, so the end result loses all its essential millness.

ok, I get that, but a derelict mill tower could otherwise just fall down. Wouldn't it be better to convert it (using none of the "sins" that modern building uses) rather than let it decay? If the working parts are rotted away anyway, surely it would be better to encourage appropriate materials for a conversion rather than letting fall apart all together? Wouldn't that be the lesser of the two evils?

Surely its like the one of Grand Designs houses that took the shell of a ruin and turned it into a really nice house.

I never entirely buy the argument that buildings will "fall down" if they aren't turned into houses. This one hasn't been used for anything for over 200 years:

But yes, in general, where the mill has been an empty shell for many years, perhaps better to sympathetically convert than demolish (but then there's an argument about "you let them convert the one that was an empty shell, so it's not fair that we can't convert this one that has machinery, so can we strip it out to make it convertable?")

 

[MdB]

Just to add to the "What to do with old stuff that isn't being used anymore" debate, there is an old red telephone box in our village which has been listed. I doubt anyone uses it at all as we get a few horse boxes a day through the village and all the houses have their own phones. I noticed this morning that the phone inside of it has been changed to a credit card only machine so that cash doesn't need to be collected from it. I guess this will pretty much guarantee that nobody uses at all in the future.

I'm glad the phone box has been listed as it adds character to the village (like the old pump) but it a structure that needs to be maintained by somebody (i.e. BT) who won't make any money back from it. If they wanted to remove it (which I am sure they do) I can fully understand why but I sure hope that they don't get around the listing.

 

[Penners]

surely it would be better to encourage appropriate materials for a conversion rather than letting fall apart all together? Wouldn't that be the lesser of the two evils?

wobs is highlighting a dilemma that crops up again and again on this forum, and to which I confess I have no answer (and suspect that I'm not alone).

There are all kinds of vernacular period buildings that - ideally - we should try to conserve in their original form, as part of our social and architectural heritage - mills, barns, stables, oast houses, pump houses, railway stations... the list goes on. But if the building is no longer used for its original function (usually because its technology has been superceded), who will pay for its upkeep in its original form?

OK, there are voluntary organisations of enthusiasts who will lovingly maintain some of these buildings. But by no means all. So, for these poor, neglected, crumbling anachronisms, what do we we do? Dig in our planning heels and refuse applications for conversion into residential use - and end up with..

Or allow sensitive conversion and the see at least the structural fabric of the building saved?

It really is an unanswerable dilemma.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Gareth - talking of "essential millness", could you please tell me about windmill sails?

Common sails (now not at all common in the UK):View attachment 2
Individual cloths spread over the sail framework. (With me in shirtsleeves not helping very much)

Spring sails (invented 1772 but popularised only after c.1820 as a cheaper version of Patent sails) with shutters in each sail. All linked together and regulated by the springs at the centre, but each sail has to be set separately:View attachment 1

Patent sails (invented 1807) shutters in each sail all linked together and controlled by a rod running through the hollow windshaft and regulated by a weight hanging on a chain at the rear of the mill:

Non-working mills tend to be restored with the shutters either omitted completely or with the (usually canvas) covering of each shutter left off (as in your first picture).

 

[Gareth Hughes]

And, alas, even when they are "rescued" by public ownership, the end result is sometimes a disaster.

Example, this was still a complete (though storm-damaged) windmill when the owner gave it to Blackpool Corporation for preservation in 1936:View attachment 1

but fifty years later, with most of the machinery removed, it looked like this (can you spot the various subtle differences and the flimsiness of some of the replacement bits?):

 

[wobs]

In our area, we've got Skidby, as I mentioned, which is fab, but also this next to the Humber Bridge:

Think it was renovated as part of the area's development to attract visitors. Doesn't seem to have a use though.

Meanwhile in East Hull, on Holderness Road, we have:

I'm sure it didn't have sails or any workings when it was derelict for years, so the majority of it will be new. Given that its a pub, I doubt it actually works, but I could be wrong. Do you like the idea that a mill could be done up to look like a mill, but is actually a pub?

 

[Penners]

Gareth - I can certainly spot the difference in the sails and the rear sack-lift mill (if that's what it's called - and what it is). I wonder whether they're still intact after the last three days of weather.

Many thanks for the explanation about sails. Do I take it that the shutters basically act as "on/off" switches, allowing the miller to set the sails turning and stop them at will? Presumably they "feather" to stop the rotation?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Gareth - I can certainly spot the difference in the sails and the rear sack-lift mill (if that's what it's called - and what it is). I wonder whether they're still intact after the last three days of weather.

Many thanks for the explanation about sails. Do I take it that the shutters basically act as "on/off" switches, allowing the miller to set the sails turning and stop them at will? Presumably they "feather" to stop the rotation?

Opening the shutters reduces the area for the wind to push against and (together with a band brake) bring the sails to a halt.

It's not a rear sack-lift (the sack hoist is inside), it's the striking chain - pull on it and the shutters open / close. Unless you're talking about the fantail?

And for fun:

 

[Gareth Hughes]

In our area, we've got Skidby, as I mentioned, which is fab, but also this next to the Humber Bridge:

Think it was renovated as part of the area's development to attract visitors. Doesn't seem to have a use though.

Meanwhile in East Hull, on Holderness Road, we have:

I'm sure it didn't have sails or any workings when it was derelict for years, so the majority of it will be new. Given that its a pub, I doubt it actually works, but I could be wrong. Do you like the idea that a mill could be done up to look like a mill, but is actually a pub?

Your first is Hessle Cliff whiting mill, which used to look like this:View attachment 2
and ground chalk for making a variety of products. Partly restored and really needs to be completed - but anyway it's maintained and not about to be lost. (Note to Penners, in this case the sails were roller-reefing, which I didn't mention before. No examples of the type still exist in England and only one in the world).

The second is Rank's Mill, Holderness Road, which is an external restoration for purely cosmetic reasons. It came off badly in the spring 2007 storms:View attachment 1

And there are at least four pubs which have been built to look like mills in the last 15 years, but never were, for example:

 

[Penners]

Unless you're talking about the fantail?

Yes, that was me trying to be a smart*rse. If the fantail is the little set of sail at the back, then that's what I meant. If it's not a sack lift, what does it do?

That eight-sail job looks a bit lethal. Is for a light wind area?

(If all these questions are getting tedious, just ignore me).

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Unless you're talking about the fantail?

Yes, that was me trying to be a smart*rse. If the fantail is the little set of sail at the back, then that's what I meant. If it's not a sack lift, what does it do?

That eight-sail job looks a bit lethal. Is for a light wind area?

(If all these questions are getting tedious, just ignore me).

Fantail automatically keeps the mill facing into the wind. Invented by a chap from Wigan in 1745.

The eight-sailer is at Heckington in Lincolnshire, where there was a plethora of more-than-four-sailed mills (though there were and are a few elsewhere):View attachment 1Then

Now

In my view, the finest working windmill in Britain, the best restoration and an excellent cafe, in a surprisingly attractive town, well worth a visit.
http://www.maudfoster.co.uk/

 

[Penners]

Thank you - that's gone on to my visit wish list.