Al Gore takes our sigantures to Bali

[Nemesis]

No, I do think it useful to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Always useful to know what they are saying.

But it also pays to know on what basis and with what authority they are saying it, what their motivation is, and of course their evidence. Often useful to know who is paying them also. On that basis, I tend to read as much as I can. As a researcher I tend to find that's useful too.

 

[middi]

A couple of weeks ago, in a soft and patronising manner, I asked my 92 year old uncle how was he coping with life, he promptly and sharply replied " very well thank you, but you youngesters should be concerned though, our world is changing". Intrigued by his reply ( assuming that he had been watching lots of television ), I asked how did he know that.
He first pointed to a small mountain in front of us and remarked that last year was the first time that the snowline completely disappeared during the summer, most important was when he added " for the first time in my life I have seen birds flying ( migrating) in the opposite direction.

My uncle would have made more sense in order to convince the sceptics.

 

[Pford75]

I don't agree that receiving funding from the fossil fuel industry renders all their research irrelevant.

All scientists require funding and none of it is 100% impartial. Friends of the earth fund research and they have a clear vested interest.....do you therefore agree that all of their research is irrelevant?

The greatest trick ever pulled by the environmental lobbyists was somehow convincining people that they were impartial.

Research and scientific points of viewed should be evaluated on their scientific merits...not rubbished on the basis of who paid for them.

 

[Nemesis]

Gosh well - of course all research has to be evaluated. And put into context.

 

[biffvernon]

Only a closed mind refuses to engage in a debate by rubbishing the opposing side, or by only reading material that simply reinforces their own beliefs and discarding everything else.

As for the smoking point, what does that mean? If they were wrong about smoking perhaps they can be wrong about climate change?

There is no place in science for closed minds and science is not about taking sides. It's method relies on creating theories and making observations to test those theories, improving the theories to take into account the observations and then making more observations. It is an endless process that gets ever closer to the truth.

Niether the climate change deniers nor the smoking advocates are part of the scientific process though they have much in common with each other.

 

[biffvernon]

A couple of weeks ago, in a soft and patronising manner, I asked my 92 year old uncle how was he coping with life, he promptly and sharply replied " very well thank you, but you youngesters should be concerned though, our world is changing". Intrigued by his reply ( assuming that he had been watching lots of television ), I asked how did he know that.
He first pointed to a small mountain in front of us and remarked that last year was the first time that the snowline completely disappeared during the summer, most important was when he added " for the first time in my life I have seen birds flying ( migrating) in the opposite direction.

My uncle would have made more sense in order to convince the sceptics.

(I just thought I'd get that post repeated - it is so beautiful. Thank you Midi.)

 

[Nemesis]

I think that smoking research 'proving' that it wasn't bad for you and there was no link with cancer tended in the main to be paid for by the tobacco companies? Of course I am sure it was impartial.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=8784687&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

Of course I'm sceptical of that too.


Sometimes big business likes to keep things to itself, can't think why.

Here's an example...


http://www.mesothelioma-facts.com/?gclid=CIfAlPbJvJACFQtEMAodJ3r3Ow

What does asbestos have to do with mesothelioma?
The only known cause of mesothelioma in the U.S. is previous exposure to asbestos fibers. Asbestos manufacturers knew about the hazards of asbestos seventy years ago - but they kept this knowledge to themselves. The first warnings to workers exposed to asbestos were given in the mid-1960s, and they were terribly inadequate. Even today, workers are not always told they are working around asbestos and are at risk for asbestos disease.

 

[Penners]

Research proves that 96.8% of left-handed people eat potatoes.

Ergo, potatoes cause left-handedness.

(What the hell is Penners on about? Has he been at the sherry again?)

 

[Flyfisher]

. . . . and people with two legs have more than the overall population average. You can't argue with statistics.

 

[NT]

quote biffvernon

> Those people at icecap.us are outside of the scientific method and are deliberately and dangerously trying to mislead people.

youre welcome to give us some fact based responses to their points, if you wish. Though really its not the central question.


> Do you want teachers to tell their charges that yew berries are good to eat, just to keep parents on their toes?

I ate loads of them, might explain a thing or 2. Seriously, the toxicity of yew berries is another one of those popular untruths that seems to be acceptabed as fact, for whatever reason. The seeds contain cyanide, but the berries are actually fairly popular with children.


NT

 

[NT]

quote biffvernon

> There is no place in science for closed minds

I hope youre not being closed minded there Biff

Seriously though, there is lots of closedmindedness in science, and if you weeded out all research with any closedmindedness I dont think there would be any left. Closedmindedness is actually a necessity for both daily life and research. Think about it, how would you research a subject if you could take nothing as given?


> and science is not about taking sides.

It mostly is - I'm not saying thats a good thing, but its the way of most research, on both sides of this question. Pford75 really hit the nail on the head on that one.


> It's method relies on creating theories and making observations to test those theories, improving the theories to take into account the observations and then making more observations. It is an endless process that gets ever closer to the truth.

I think you mean hypothesis, which is not theory. Climate alarmism is hypothesis, not theory.


> Niether the climate change deniers nor the smoking advocates are part of the scientific process though they have much in common with each other.

Sorry but this is a classic misleading invalid argument. Claiming 2 different groups are much the same is not a valid argument in any respect. And in this case they are very different animals.


The reality of the world is that the most informed are always a minority, and we vote on a whole lot of things in life, whether directly or more often indirectly.


NT

 

[Nemesis]

Claiming 2 different groups are much the same is not a valid argument in any respect

.

Sez who? Just your own assertion really.

 

[biffvernon]

NT and Pford75 won't want to read the articles here:

http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2007/12/the_official_nutters_list.php
http://rabett.blogspot.com/2007/12/makin-list-checkin-it-twice-here-is.html
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/11/21/11591/198
http://simondonner.blogspot.com/2007/12/attack-of-climate-skeptics-xxii-imhofes.html
http://rabett.blogspot.com/2007/12/dessler-20-eli-spent-some-time-going.html

which all seem to have appeared since I last contributed to this thread.

 

[Nemesis]

The seeds contain cyanide, but the berries are actually fairly popular with children.

Show me the research on the popularity of yew seeds with children. I have a number of yew trees, maybe I can make some cash by marketing them?

Not sure what uses children find to which to put them. Puzzling.

All parts of the yew are extremely poisonous. The only exception is the fleshy part of its arils (berries), but the seed within is deadly. This is definitely not a tree for self-medication!!!
In spite of this it has been used in the past by herbalists to treat a variety of ills, such as a small amount of the powdered leaves (1-5 gr) for epilepsy and its use as an abortifacient. Although the Yew alkaloids generally cause paralysis, it stimulates spasms in the womb. Like so many other ways of inducing an arbortus, it was too often practiced by women desperate enough to take great risks. The fact that these practices had to take place in deep secrecy must have contributed to many fatalities, because it was difficult to spread knowledge and experience in a climate, where ending an unwanted pregnancy was still a mortal sin.
Yew medicine was also used in Europe for snakebites and rabies, obstructions of the liver and bilious complaints. John Lowe (physician to the Prince of Wales in the Victorian era and author of "The Yew Trees of Britain and Ireland" 1896) actually carried out experiments on himself and found it was a powerful cardiac tonic, which in minute quantities, slows down the pulse. His research also found that the leaves had been used in India as a stomach medicine and, in the form of a decoction, to treat rheumatism. Due to its extreme toxicity and uncertain action, it is no longer used in herbal medicine in this country. Native American tribes used the Pacific Yew (Taxus brevifolia), which has a similar chemistry to our yew, as an anti-inflammatory, and for rheumatism, scurvy, lung and bowel complaints.
The Yew is still used in homeopathy. A tincture is made of the fresh leaves, diluted and shaken (succussed) many times until the appropriate potency has been achieved, and used, for example, to treat gout and rheumatism, arthritis, urinary tract infections and heart and liver conditions.

The National Cancer Institute of the USA started a campaign to find new medicines to treat cancer and over the next two decennia researched between 114.045 plant extracts and 16.196 animal extracts! The one promising thing, which came out of this research was a substance called Taxol, prepared from the inner bark, or cambium, of the Pacific Yew (Taxus brevifolia), though all species contain the active chemical. It works in a completely different way from other cancer drugs. It halts the division cancer cells not by breaking them down, but through paralysing them by 'imprisoning' the cancerous cells within a cage of microscopic tubules. The drug is introduced directly into the tumour to stop the lethal fast growth. It is often used where conventional chemo-therapy has failed and seems to be particularly effective in breast and ovarian tumours and possibly also in lungcancer.
It is by no means a cure-all, as only about one in three patients responds to the treatment, but considering the large amount of people, who suffer from cancer, it can offer significant increases in life expectancy for thousands without dreadful side effects. A immense problem is the fact that it needs the inner bark of six trees to gather enough Taxol to treat one patient! This situation poses a great dilemma because the numbers of Pacific Yews have much declined due to logging the forests where they grew. The Yew itself was not even harvested, but seen merely as a trash-tree and often burned together with other remains of the clear-felling. Hopefully the Pacific Yew will be better loved and appreciated in the future and many nurseries have already sprung up in the USA to meet demand.
Research is carrying on. Pierre Potier of The Chemical Institute of Natural Substances in France has produced a substance called 'baccatin' from the branches of European Yews, which can be used to create a drug called 'taxotere'. It is chemically extremely closely related to taxol and may be easier to administer and more effective than its natural counterpart.

The healing power of Yew is safely accessible through vibrational remedies. The following is an example of remedies currently being made and their indications.
Mother Nature's Celtic Tree Remedies:
Keyword: Immortality.

Yew energy is an invaluable ally for those who are ill or ageing and facing death, as it can assist in breaking through dogma, doubts, fear and conditioning by elevating our spiritual frequency.
It also helps all of us to integrate splits in our understanding and experience of spirit and matter, between mortality and eternity and has the extraordinary ability to aid us to see/feel the importance of our own unique being as a vital part of the world soul: Yew assists us to heal the connection between our brief mortal lives and eternity. Yew facilitates the linking between our separate, temporary identities and our larger self: the Source: the One Soul searching to know and experience its endless possibilities.

Yew also strengthens energy levels, flexibility, resilience and immunity when we are genuinely trying to follow whatever we perceive as our calling and vocation in life. It does not matter whether this expresses itself in 'small' or 'great' deeds, in actions or in pure 'being'. The important thing is that we follow our heart. When we do this fully, it will inevitably lead us to a richer and more fulfilled life, as well as be good for the greater whole.

Lastly, Yew energy, with its multi-million years of consciousness, knows that to be fully present in the Here and Now and to appreciate each moment as a unique gift, is the Gateway to Renewal.

For all these reasons, the Yew remedy is applicable to a wide assortment of conditions and states of mind, ranging from 'burn out' to feeling lost and alienated; from minor illnesses, which let us know that we are out of touch with ourselves to terminal illnesses, which may make us aware that we are out of touch with our Divine Source.

http://www.the-tree.org.uk/BritishTrees/yew.htm#Medicinal%20properties

 

[biffvernon]

The seeds contain cyanide,

No, it's a group of alkaloids called taxines that are the problem. Lethal dose for horses and cattle is a few hundred mg/kg body weight. Didn't you hear The Archers a couple of months ago? I think elk are less affected and sometimes brouse yew when all else is under snow.

 

[Nemesis]

We aren't big on elk in these parts, although we are quite fond of yews.

http://www.ancient-yew.org/beltinghamyews.shtml

 

[NT]

>> Claiming 2 different groups are much the same is not a valid argument in any respect.

>Sez who? Just your own assertion really.

There is just no logical component to such claims. They are popular opinion influencers with no logical validity. Its found in book and on websites that list and explain all the usual fallacies used in arguments.


> Show me the research on the popularity of yew seeds with children.

Google...


> Not sure what uses children find to which to put them. Puzzling.

Some eat the berries.


NT

 

[Nemesis]

Oh come on - this is low level excuse, not reasoned and informed discussion on your behalf.

Fallacy - yes, you are good at that, but I stopped taking much of it seriously a long while ago.

How poisonous is the yew?
Poison is found in all parts except for the fleshy fruit.
The poison is called Taxine. “The alkaloid ephedrine, as well as a volatile oil and traces of a cyanogenic glycoside, taxiphyllin, are also present.” HMSO 1984
The leaves are more toxic than the seed.
(Paul Greenwood 2005)

Effect on animals
There is contradictory evidence about the effect on animals of eating yew foliage. There are many recorded instances of animals known to have died from grazing on yew leaves. There are also reports of animals eating leaves without suffering any ill effects. It is not unknown for small quantities of leaves to be added to supplement winter fodder for cattle.
Poisonous plants in Britain and their effects on animals and man published by the HMSO in 1984 is however unambiguous in its advice: “……..yew should never be fed to animals…….”
(Copyright © Tim Hills 2005)

Effect on humans
Fifty to one hundred grams of chopped leaves is considered fatal to adults.
A world-wide investigation in 1998 (Krenzelok et al.) shows 11,197 records of yew poisoning (from all Taxus species) in humans (96.4% in children less than 12 years old) and found no deaths. A 1992 article in Forensic Science International (Van Ingen et al.) stated that only 10 authenticated cases of fatal human poisoning by T. baccata had been recorded in the previous 31 years, and that they were all deliberate.
Krenzelok, E.P., Jacobsen, T.D. & Aronis, J. (1998) "Is the yew really poisonous to you?", Journal of Toxicology Clinical Toxicology, 36, 219-223.
Van Ingen, G., Visser, R., Peltenburg, H., Van Der Ark, A.M. & Voortman, M. (1992) "Sudden unexpected death due to Taxus poisoning. A report of five cases, with review of the literature". Forensic Science International, 56, 81-87.
(Copyright © Fred Hageneder 2005)

http://www.tree-care.info/uktc/archive/2003/msg02181

And as for claims about different groups being the same - I haven't read the websites you claim exist, but the logic of what you say leaves a great deal to be desired.

 

[Nemesis]

Oh - I am sure that you will dismiss Monbiot, but this archive article is worth reading:

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/04/27/the-fossil-fools/


Different take on the smoking issue of course.

And I so agree with his statement about M Phillips.

These weasel words are, of course, what make it a scientific report, rather than a column by Melanie Phillips.

Clearly Vogons and Hitler's followers were two different groups of ideals, but they had extermination in common.

You can so frequently find similarities between different groups of people.

 

[Penners]

Clearly Vogons and Hitler's followers were two different groups of ideals, but they had extermination in common.

That's grossly unfair to Vogons. They had no intention to exterminate anybody. After all, the plans for the hyperspace bypass (that required Earth to be demolished) were clearly displayed in the council offices on Alpha Centauri for 50 years.

If people can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs then it's hardly surprising that the demolition of their home planet was carried out before they a chance to move elsewhere.

There's a lesson there for us all.