A light fitting or not?

[Penners]

It seems that all my memories of men of the family doing wiring- the shocks, the blackouts, the drama, must be consigned to the past.

Well, yes. But after all those dramas you do begin to see the reason for Part P.

When the regulation first came in I was very cross, because I immodestly regard myself as capable of fully rewiring an entire house (having done it a number of times). But when you find that previous occupants of your house have carried out DIY electrical work that includes incorrectly polarised sockets, twin conductor lighting flex run from a loop-in ceiling rose to a TV power socket, 2.5mm cable feeding a cooker panel... and so on, you begin to see the sense of it.

So I'm in favour of no more shocks, blackouts, burns, deaths....

 

[Flyfisher]

Not that I would ever condone such things, but as long as you use the old red/black wiring then I can't really see how anyone can tell when the work was done. All the Part P stuff only came in a few years ago and DIY wiring was perfectly legal before then. So, in practice, if you were capable of safe DIY wiring work back then you must still be equally capable now. The only difference is that the law has changed, your knowledge and skills haven't.

"Has any electrical work been carried out in the house since the 1st January 2005 which requires notification under Part P (Electrical Safety) of the Building Regulations?" - that's between you and your conscience, but do a competent job with red/black wiring and no one would be able to find out for themselves.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

There was quite a trade on eBay after 2005 selling "old" red and black cable, to enable competent diy electricians to continue doing what they were doing up until 2005 and Part P.

I think the conscience part is more to do with accepting your family will live in the house with your work, not which fibs you may tell a solicitor some years down the line. For myself, I am happy enough with the standard of my work (like Penners having done it for a long time) and you're not likely to see a neater consumer unit than the one I replaced last year.

We should forever resist encroachments upon the right of a DIYer to undertake their own work - provided it meets appropriate minimum/certifiable standards. After all, an Englishman's is his castle (or moated house in Graham's case!)

 

[Penners]

We should forever resist encroachments upon the right of a DIYer to undertake their own work - provided it meets appropriate minimum/certifiable standards.

Well, yes, FW, I'm spiritually with you there. But it's your last phrase that's the killer.

It's an unfortunate fact that the worst DIY bodger is also the one who is least likely to (a) have any knowledge of, or (b) give a toss about the appropriate minimum/certifiable standards. The electrical sins that I described in my post above weren't fictitious - I have really come across these (among many others) in my very modest period property renovation career. Goodness knows what the professionals find in their day-to-day work.

So how is the governing authority to know whether any individual example of DIY work has been done to an acceptable standard or not?

I'm in favour of allowing DIYers to do whatever work they feel capable of and inclined to. But that principle of laissez-faire does, I'm afraid, stop at the point where such work, if sub-standard, can be a danger to life and limb. Principally, I suppose I'm talking about electrics and gas, both of which have the capacity to kill, if not properly and safely installed.

 

[JoceAndChris]

But where will it all end? If you say that installing electricity/ gas is too dangerous for the DIYer because of the risks it poses to future owners then how about roofing (beam might fall down and decapitate future owner) floor repair (board might tip, future owner might break leg) planting a bed of aconitum (future owner might mistake it for rocket salad and eat it)

I'm with Ilona I think. A decent exam is required that pays respect to our intelligence and differentiates between the bodger and the brilliant. (with Penners, Robin, Fly and Chris falling into the later category, obvoiusly, and being allowed to do what they like).

 

[Ushy M]

I do understand the idea of protecting the public from bodgers, but some of this legislation strikes me as OTT. Mr M has been a qualified electrician and lighting technician for donkey's years - chief electrician at some of London's larger theatres, lighting rock concerts, rewiring factories etc. etc. but not allowed to do domestic wiring for us or anyone else without starting from scratch and retaking all his qualifications. Bonkers.

 

[Penners]

Mr M has been a qualified electrician and lighting technician for donkey's years - but not allowed to do domestic wiring for us or anyone else without starting from scratch and retaking all his qualifications. Bonkers.

Not so. What Mr M and any other experienced electrician needs to do is (and I quote from the FAQ's of the main Scheme Providers):-

"apply to a Scheme Provider by completing the Scheme Providers application pack and posting to them. At a mutually convenient time the Scheme Providers assessor will visit your place of work and assess your compliance with BS7671 and visit a selection of recently completed installations. The successful outcome ensures you will be able to self certify your work."

 

[Flyfisher]

I think Joce's suggestion is excellent (the one allowing a select few carte blanche while everyone else must stick to the letter of the law!).

Seriously, much as I abhor red tape, I fully accept there is no easy answer. Strange as it may seem, while I consider myself competent with electrics I don't have the same confidence with gas and have never done any DIY gas work. I suppose the true DIY bodger doesn't have the sense to know what they don't know - I can't think of any other explanation for the horror stories we've all read. But even then there's still a difference between wilful negligence and innocent stupidity, in terms of motive rather than potential outcome anyway.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

I was just wondering why I'd never had a go at gas, on the basis that the risk/consequences are probably no different in scale to electrics - and then I remembered I've never lived anywhere with a mains gas connection! :roll:

The problem is that I think every other idiot should need to have their work certifed, but not me due to the cost/inconvenience. This certainly includes the 1970s builder who tanked and rewired my house - and having run out of twin and earth connected the furthest socket on the dining room ring with what looked like bell-cable and insulating tape (I kid you not) :shock: :shock: :shock:

The irony is that we make DIYers jump through ever increasing hoops and red tape, make everyone pass a test to drive a car, and then let any moron breed and vote entirely unfettered. The long term damage you can do to a kid far outweighs the risk of running a fused lighting spur off a ringmain...

Incidentally Penners - which red brick poly have you got interior furnishing sustificates from? Your recent forays into Joce's latest questions exceed even your usually very wide field of knowledge!!

 

[JoceAndChris]

The irony is that we make DIYers jump through ever increasing hoops and red tape, make everyone pass a test to drive a car, and then let any moron breed and vote entirely unfettered. The long term damage you can do to a kid far outweighs the risk of running a fused lighting spur off a ringmain...

Incidentally Penners - which red brick poly have you got interior furnishing sustificates from? Your recent forays into Joce's latest questions exceed even your usually very wide field of knowledge!!

Absolutely- mass sterilisation of the chavs is called for. They're breeding like wildfire, whilst we middle classes have to resort to IVF because we delay pregancy until we're past it for some poxy career. It's ridiculous. At the very least they could give us their babies before they screw them up good and proper. :twisted:

Penners has a secret other life writing for "Homes and Interiors". His favourite scheme is a blend of pinks.

 

[ilona73]

ooppps!

 

[Penners]

Incidentally Penners - which red brick poly have you got interior furnishing sustificates from? Your recent forays into Joce's latest questions exceed even your usually very wide field of knowledge!!

[bob hoskins voice] Sustificates? Pah! Not me, mate! School of 'Ard Knocks is where I learned me trade.[/bob hoskins voice]

The problem with my "wide field of knowledge" is that it may look quite wide when viewed from a long way away, but when you get close-up you realise how thinly it's planted.

 

[Ushy M]

Not so. What Mr M and any other experienced electrician needs to do is (and I quote from the FAQ's of the main Scheme Providers):-

"apply to a Scheme Provider by completing the Scheme Providers application pack and posting to them. At a mutually convenient time the Scheme Providers assessor will visit your place of work and assess your compliance with BS7671 and visit a selection of recently completed installations. The successful outcome ensures you will be able to self certify your work

Thanks for this Penners - will look into this. The difficulty as I foresee it is that M is self-employed, so doesn't have a 'place of work' and as he now mostly works in the conference industry, his 'installations' are up for the duration of whatever show he's lighting and then instantly dismantled. Worth investigating though.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Thanks for this Penners - will look into this. The difficulty as I foresee it is that M is self-employed, so doesn't have a 'place of work' and as he now mostly works in the conference industry, his 'installations' are up for the duration of whatever show he's lighting and then instantly dismantled. Worth investigating though.

From another rock tour/conference/rigging/lighting insider I don't think it is anything like household electrickery.

 

[Penners]

From another rock tour/conference/rigging/lighting insider I don't think it is anything like household electrickery.

Wow, 'Marm! We're discovering a cool new side to you! (not that you weren't cool before, but... a roadie?!)

However, while I appreciate that the approach to rigging lighting for temporary venues will be different from a permanent installation, it surely requires the same level of knowledge and skill, doesn't it?

 

[Schoolmarm]

Well it is hubby really and both daughters now.
We have had a lighting company for nearly thirty years but have recently changed more to rigging which is the suspension of all lighting/sound/stage stuff.

Lighting on gigs comprises mainly running out long lengths of cable with big socapex plugs on the end. You run it from the power supply(three phase box) using giant tail things to the dimmers then to the lights and the control desk.

House lighting is all rings and circuits and complicated.

There you have my total knowledge on all electrickery.

I know it is a lot different because hardly anyone at work wants to do my daughter's rewire :lol: :lol:

 

[Penners]

using giant tail things to the dimmers

Just a suggestion - and do tell me if I'm talking out of turn.

When the inspector blokey comes to assess your professional installation work, try to avoid the phrase "giant tail things". It tends to erode one's feeling of confidence in your expertise. I know that "tails" is a perfectly acceptable 'letrical word - it's the "giant" and "things" that rather devalue it.

:wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[Schoolmarm]

It 's ok, I don't go on jobs :lol: :lol:

 

[JoceAndChris]

For all would-be DIY wirers- a happy update.

I had a lovely chap visit, an ex-science teacher who had a career change and now lectures on courses for electricians, and trains electricians in Peterborough. He was very familiar with the regs of Part P, and said it was fine to go ahead and instal a ceiling light ourselves, either by running it off the socket or by taking it from the wiring that is in the attic just above this bedroom (there's a light in the attic).

He said there is absolutely no need for a certificate or inspection for the minor work of getting a ceiling light when there is already electricity in the room.

If it was a potentially wet area we wouldn't be able to do our own wiring, e.g. kitchen, bathroom.

He also said that although our house presented many quirky conundrums in terms of its electrical, water and oil supplies you couldn't always do things to the letter of Part P. For example, the water pipe to the Rayburn did not comply with modern standards, but short of major invasive structural work there's nothing can be done about it.

It was nice to see such a pragmatic approach, and great that Chris can do this work with a clear conscience.

 

[Flyfisher]

Did he say anything about using a 'fused spur' for running a ceiling light from a power socket?
I don't think I'd be happy to run a ceiling light directly from a 30Amp ring main.