Penners
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Huh - I wish...JoceAndChris said:
Actually, I don't. As probably the most photographed scene in Suffolk, it's undoubtedly plagued with nosey tourists.
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Actually, I don't. As probably the most photographed scene in Suffolk, it's undoubtedly plagued with nosey tourists.
Well - I agree that it's a very pretty picture, but I counted at least five front doors, so it looks as though the accommodation would be a bit limited. Nowhere near enough room for the Penroses to host a PPUK gathering.
However you, Joce, have plenty of room .........
However you, Joce, have plenty of room .........
JoceAndChris
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Moo said:
Well as it looks like being very much a PPUK house the least I can do is offer you lot a party and chance to meet up, plus I'd love to, so I'll have a think about when/how...
You'll all have to wee on the flower beds and sleep in the sheds mind.
Penners
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You just happen to have struck on the greatest of my many talents.JoceAndChris said:
FamilyWiggs
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No, No,No Penners. You have to wee on your compost heap, not the flowers directly. The nitrogen acts as some sort of catalyst in the composting process, apparently.
Penners
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FamilyWiggs said:
What? From here? (Very old joke).
FWIW you can get remote controlled sockets to plug lights into there are both radio and infrared versions (the radio ones can be hidden behind funiture, but the IR ones need to 'see' the remote.
Quite a neat way to get over not having a dedicated lighting circuit if lamps are what you want.
e.g. http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=225158
Quite a neat way to get over not having a dedicated lighting circuit if lamps are what you want.
e.g. http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=225158
Penners
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That sounds a good idea, with one fatal flaw. What do you do when you lose the remote (which I invariably do)?
JoceAndChris
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Light a candle.
Thanks AMc, but my brain is too small to take in that much technology.
Thanks AMc, but my brain is too small to take in that much technology.
Penners
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Actually, AMc, I've made a note of that product. Could by very useful - and it's not expensive. Many thanks.
JoceAndChris
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BTW, I'm trying to organise this work now, and electricians have told me that
1) A system installed in 1984 is unlikely to be compliant with current regulations and likely to need replacing
2) A "spur" can't legally be taken from an electric socket - you'd need to do it properly from the main switchy bit (sorry technical term eludes me here)
Is this right? :shock:
It bumps the cost up by about £1000.
1) A system installed in 1984 is unlikely to be compliant with current regulations and likely to need replacing
2) A "spur" can't legally be taken from an electric socket - you'd need to do it properly from the main switchy bit (sorry technical term eludes me here)
Is this right? :shock:
It bumps the cost up by about £1000.
Penners
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I'm not very familiar with the latest regulations, but here are a few thoughts:-
A system installed in 1984 is almost certainly OK as regards the cabling - provided the cables were all installed or replaced then. They should be modern twin-and-earth cables, 2.5 mm^2 for power rings and 1 or 1.5 mm^2 for lighting.
I doubt that your consumer unit (ie: fuse board) has modern mini-circuit-breakers - more likely to be rewirable fuse carriers. These can be replaced with plug-in MCB's - I believe this OK under modern regs. Can anyone confirm or refute, please?
The regs when I last mugged up on them did permit a single spur to be run from an existing switchsocket, provided the switchsocket is directly on a ring main. But I think there may have been a limit to the number of spurs you could attach like this - I can't remember. Once again, I don't know whether this is up-to-date information.
There are other issues that might be relevant, like equipotential bonding and special lighting regulations for bathrooms, but if these aren't to modern regs I don't know whether you can be forced to upgrade them, unless the wiring for that room is being modified.
I'm sorry - that's all very "if and but" I'm afraid, but hopefully others with more current ( :lol: ) knowledge will reply.
A system installed in 1984 is almost certainly OK as regards the cabling - provided the cables were all installed or replaced then. They should be modern twin-and-earth cables, 2.5 mm^2 for power rings and 1 or 1.5 mm^2 for lighting.
I doubt that your consumer unit (ie: fuse board) has modern mini-circuit-breakers - more likely to be rewirable fuse carriers. These can be replaced with plug-in MCB's - I believe this OK under modern regs. Can anyone confirm or refute, please?
The regs when I last mugged up on them did permit a single spur to be run from an existing switchsocket, provided the switchsocket is directly on a ring main. But I think there may have been a limit to the number of spurs you could attach like this - I can't remember. Once again, I don't know whether this is up-to-date information.
There are other issues that might be relevant, like equipotential bonding and special lighting regulations for bathrooms, but if these aren't to modern regs I don't know whether you can be forced to upgrade them, unless the wiring for that room is being modified.
I'm sorry - that's all very "if and but" I'm afraid, but hopefully others with more current ( :lol: ) knowledge will reply.
Flyfisher
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I can't give definitive answers either (i.e. latest 17th edition wiring regulations) but I'll add a few comments that might help when asking questions:
1) A system installed in 1984 is unlikely to be compliant with current regulations and likely to need replacing
The former seems likely but I don't believe there is any necessity to upgrade wiring simply because it doesn't meet the latest regulations. If this was the case it would be mandatory for almost every house in the country to be rewired when new regulations are issued. Bear in mind that the 16th edition regs came out not so long ago (2003?) and you can see that it can't be necessary to keep upgrading. A simplistic example is that the latest regulations now specify Brown/Blue fixed wiring instead of the former Red/Black - so by the "doesn't meet latest regs" argument, any house over about 4 years old would need re-wiring!
I agree with Penners that 1984 wiring is almost certainly OK - assuming it was correctly installed at the time. I believe new regulations always cover the (very common!) situation where wiring installed to one edition of the regs is to have additional wiring added under a newer edition. I would ask your electricians to explain their suggestions in more detail, explaining their reasoning.
2) A "spur" can't legally be taken from an electric socket - you'd need to do it properly from the main switchy bit (sorry technical term eludes me here)
Again, I also agree with Penners (one socket spurred off a ring-main circuit), but I'm wondering if we're at cross-purposes. This thread started with a lighting question and it is probably the case that it's not permitted to spur any lighting off a power socket because of the different fusing requirements. Having said that, I would ask if it is possible to fit a fused switch as part of the spur circuit, so that although a lighting spur might be connected to a 30Amp ring-main it is protected by a 5Amp fuse, as per standard lighting circuits. This would certainly work, but I don't know if it would comply with the latest wiring regulations.
So, not the definitive yes/no answers you're probably seeking I'm afraid, but hopefully of some help when interrogating your electricians.
1) A system installed in 1984 is unlikely to be compliant with current regulations and likely to need replacing
The former seems likely but I don't believe there is any necessity to upgrade wiring simply because it doesn't meet the latest regulations. If this was the case it would be mandatory for almost every house in the country to be rewired when new regulations are issued. Bear in mind that the 16th edition regs came out not so long ago (2003?) and you can see that it can't be necessary to keep upgrading. A simplistic example is that the latest regulations now specify Brown/Blue fixed wiring instead of the former Red/Black - so by the "doesn't meet latest regs" argument, any house over about 4 years old would need re-wiring!
I agree with Penners that 1984 wiring is almost certainly OK - assuming it was correctly installed at the time. I believe new regulations always cover the (very common!) situation where wiring installed to one edition of the regs is to have additional wiring added under a newer edition. I would ask your electricians to explain their suggestions in more detail, explaining their reasoning.
2) A "spur" can't legally be taken from an electric socket - you'd need to do it properly from the main switchy bit (sorry technical term eludes me here)
Again, I also agree with Penners (one socket spurred off a ring-main circuit), but I'm wondering if we're at cross-purposes. This thread started with a lighting question and it is probably the case that it's not permitted to spur any lighting off a power socket because of the different fusing requirements. Having said that, I would ask if it is possible to fit a fused switch as part of the spur circuit, so that although a lighting spur might be connected to a 30Amp ring-main it is protected by a 5Amp fuse, as per standard lighting circuits. This would certainly work, but I don't know if it would comply with the latest wiring regulations.
So, not the definitive yes/no answers you're probably seeking I'm afraid, but hopefully of some help when interrogating your electricians.
JoceAndChris
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Thank you both so much for your thoughts on this very knotty subject.
To clarify - yes, I want to rig up a ceiling light from the power socket. I was told this was an amateurish method and whilst it would work it wouldn't be legal.
I was also told that it was the consumer unit that would need replacing- £500- not all the wiring in the house!
But I suspect they'd take one look at our consumer unit's location - under a home-made perspex roof, in a "room" that's only accessible to nimble, skinny people and cats, have 10,000 fits and leave. They also have refused to enter my roof unless it's planked out - they were less than enchanted with my suggestion to tiptoe along the joists. We could plank out the roof, but what a pain.
All of which leads us to conclude we'll do our own wiring, illegal or not. I'm sure this means that were a fire to ensue because of Chris' wiring, insurance wouldn't pay out, however, he's highly skilled and experienced at wiring, as well as nimble and cat-like, and I'm sure his work will be at least as tidy and safe as that of a qualified electrician.
To clarify - yes, I want to rig up a ceiling light from the power socket. I was told this was an amateurish method and whilst it would work it wouldn't be legal.
I was also told that it was the consumer unit that would need replacing- £500- not all the wiring in the house!
But I suspect they'd take one look at our consumer unit's location - under a home-made perspex roof, in a "room" that's only accessible to nimble, skinny people and cats, have 10,000 fits and leave. They also have refused to enter my roof unless it's planked out - they were less than enchanted with my suggestion to tiptoe along the joists. We could plank out the roof, but what a pain.
All of which leads us to conclude we'll do our own wiring, illegal or not. I'm sure this means that were a fire to ensue because of Chris' wiring, insurance wouldn't pay out, however, he's highly skilled and experienced at wiring, as well as nimble and cat-like, and I'm sure his work will be at least as tidy and safe as that of a qualified electrician.
Penners
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Hmmm - I hadn't spotted that you were wanting to spur a lighting run off a power circuit. As Flyfisher said - that's not permitted (don't know about his fused spur idea).
If Chris is going to do the modifications to the electrics, that's permissable under the regulations, but you must get his work inspected by a qualified electrician or by the Building Inspector, afterwards, and a certificate issued*. Otherwise it's illegal. If he runs any new cabling, it will be in the new blue/brown colour coding, as Flyfisher also explained, but this is OK so long as he puts the official sticker on the consumer unit:-
You can buy these at trade electrical stockists.
*If you don't have this certificate if/when you come to sell the house, it'll cause you all kinds of problems.
If Chris is going to do the modifications to the electrics, that's permissable under the regulations, but you must get his work inspected by a qualified electrician or by the Building Inspector, afterwards, and a certificate issued*. Otherwise it's illegal. If he runs any new cabling, it will be in the new blue/brown colour coding, as Flyfisher also explained, but this is OK so long as he puts the official sticker on the consumer unit:-
You can buy these at trade electrical stockists.
*If you don't have this certificate if/when you come to sell the house, it'll cause you all kinds of problems.
Some electricians will be happy for you to install the main cable runs in the loft and have them do the connecting in the rooms (can't tell if this is feasible in your circumstances).
If you are in the loft, running cables, you might consider the addition of some mains connected smoke alarms if you don't already have them. Simple to install, cheap and possibly life-saving
If you are in the loft, running cables, you might consider the addition of some mains connected smoke alarms if you don't already have them. Simple to install, cheap and possibly life-saving
JoceAndChris
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Thanks Pford- the smoke alarms should really be installed as you say: I trust myself to be ultra careful, but can't trust guests at all, who generally have no experience building and supervising fires.
I should make a few more phone calls and see if any local electricians would consider this half and half action plan, but, as I mentioned before, it seems unlikely they're going to turn a blind eye to that consumer unit in a potentially leaky area.
Thanks AMc - a good, girls' explanation. That's certainly an interesting idea for when we come to rewire the living rooms.
Penners- I'm sorry to be obtuse, feel free to tell me off, but why must we be legal? Who is ever going to know or care? Previous owner has kindly left some old coloured cables so we can fake it as an old job.
What's this certificate? We never asked for a certificate of safe wiring- I wouldn't dream of being so awkward when I'm sure the previous owner made lots of illegal changes - do people really ask for certificates of safe wiring? And if you say it was all done long ago, how can they know of your wicked wiring acts?
(ducks and runs for cover!)
I should make a few more phone calls and see if any local electricians would consider this half and half action plan, but, as I mentioned before, it seems unlikely they're going to turn a blind eye to that consumer unit in a potentially leaky area.
Thanks AMc - a good, girls' explanation. That's certainly an interesting idea for when we come to rewire the living rooms.
Penners- I'm sorry to be obtuse, feel free to tell me off, but why must we be legal? Who is ever going to know or care? Previous owner has kindly left some old coloured cables so we can fake it as an old job.
What's this certificate? We never asked for a certificate of safe wiring- I wouldn't dream of being so awkward when I'm sure the previous owner made lots of illegal changes - do people really ask for certificates of safe wiring? And if you say it was all done long ago, how can they know of your wicked wiring acts?
(ducks and runs for cover!)
Penners
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Ah - you see I'm trying to tell you what you're supposed to do. If you decide to plough your own furrow, then of course that's entirely your business.JoceAndChris said:
As to your question "who is ever going to know or care?", just ask anyone who has bought or sold a house recently. Obviously you're planning to live there for years and years, but the time may/will come when you'll want/need to sell. That's when you begin to experience the intrusive noise of chickens coming home to roost.
It goes like this: your solicitor sends you a sheaf of law society questionnaires (known as TransAction forms) to fill in, in order to answer the questions that will be asked by your purchaser's solicitor. A couple of those questions will be something along the lines of:
"Has any electrical work been carried out in the house since the 1st January 2005 which requires notification under Part P (Electrical Safety) of the Building Regulations?"
"If Yes, please supply the following
(a) a copy of the signed BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate for all those types of electrical work that have been carried out
and
(b)in the case of a registered installer, the installer's Building Regulations compliance certificate, or in the case of an unregistered installer, the Building Contracts Department completion certificate."
The answers that you give to these questionnaires become part of the legal contract of sale between you and your purchaser.
I'm not sure how much it costs for you to get your electrical worked inspected and certificated, but - wild guess - say £200. Is it really worth risking a law suit (and, worst case, a prosecution) to save that sum?
I'm probably sounding dreadfully old-fartish and alarmist about this, but I reckon it's just not worth trying to sidestep the correct procedure.
JoceAndChris
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Penners said:
Not at all: you're a complete angel and I'd be lost without you.
Two hundred quid is not a lot of money to avoid jail. I've spent the whole afternoon on the phone and at last have found an electrician who is more relaxed about wriggling along joists, accepting the 1984 consumer unit, back flipping into the upper scullery, and taking a spur from whatever he finds, and all for £200, and a BS7671 chucked in.
I'd rather give our money to an electrician than try to get Chris' work certified: I wouldn't know where to begin with that one.
It seems that all my memories of men of the family doing wiring- the shocks, the blackouts, the drama, must be consigned to the past. All the men in our families would have been ashamed to call in an electrician- for heavens' sake, Chris' grandfather invented the electric soldering iron, and my brother is busy inventing extraordinary chips!
But now we are no longer allowed to electrocute ourselves. How dull.