Windows: microscopic paint analysis

[paulb33]

Just had a microscopic paint analysis on the windows of our Edwardian arts & crafts house. Delighted to see the original finish is a dark chocolate brown paint over red lead primer. I dislike white windows..... Probably a uPVC association in my mind. Now, we were going to finish the replacement softwood windows with a linseed oil paint. We have 50 windows and ease of maintenance is a priority. But, this analysis might change that. Does anyone have any thoughts, comments, I wonder?

 

[Nigel Watts]

That's a great picture. How was the sample prepared?

 

[JoceAndChris]

How wonderful! I wholeheartedly applaud your research and decision on colour.

I have half your number of windows ( Viccy sashes, mostly) and I decided linseed paint, though it is thought highly of on this forum, is too much work. If you can pay a team of painters then yes, otherwise you're looking at a lot of days spent painting and more importantly trying to secure the right drying conditions. If it's damp weather it's going to take a fair while to dry and during the period of the paint being sticky flies and leaves will land in.


Then, there is the business of the preparation. Linseed paint must go on properly prepared ( ie not modern paint) surfaces. That's sanding 50 windows back to your Arts and Crafts paint.

I did a lot of research into it and came to the conclusion it must be great for new windows made in a traditional manner, painted indoors.

 

[agbagb]

Joce, you missed a bit, they are replacements, but you are right to point out that linseed can be a faff. When I built my new sliding sashes I painted them in the garage and built a huge hot box /tent to cure them in.
At the moment I'm still on with the windows in the Whitby cottage. One thing I learnt, don't paint them in the evening then turn the lights on inside, you end up with lots of legs and wings to sand off.

Apart from all that, I love the stuff.

 

[agbagb]

double posted somehow.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh silly me - I missed the replacement bit.

Garage and hot box sounds ideal!

 

[paulb33]

Yeah: replacements. We have a large double garage...... But, is it a folly given the originals had more modern primer, etc?

A stunning house, designed by a notable Victorian architect for himself. The previous owners tore out the original windows in the 90s and stuck in uPVC. I lie awake at night cursing them. I've spent 10 years saving money to replace them. £150 for a proper paint analysis seems money well spent, given the catastrophic amount I'm about to spend. PM and I'll pass on the person who did it. Great job.

It might be a faff to do linseed paint. But, not so much a faff as £7k on scaffolding and repainting every 3 years...

Glad for all advice, musings etc...

Paul

 

[paulb33]

That's a great picture. How was the sample prepared?

Chipped off a piece of the window. The sample was mounted in polyester resin and a cross section taken. Examined under high magnification microscope under incident and UV light. Apparently.

So happy to discover its dark chocolate brown. It was the colour I had in my minds eye, in spite of the acres of shiny white plastic.

Paul

 

[plasticpigeon]

Yes, I hope you have some photos to put up. I want chocolate brown or dark varnish on my internal woodwork, but it has been vetoed by the boss. 50 windows?? Do you live in a greenhouse!!!!

 

[paulb33]

Yes, I hope you have some photos to put up. I want chocolate brown or dark varnish on my internal woodwork, but it has been vetoed by the boss. 50 windows?? Do you live in a greenhouse!!!!

Six bedroom, three story, with tons of faffy arts and crafts windows of all sizes....

 

[paulb33]

And, in "gloss white, 21st century" guise....

 

[88v8]

Glorious. And on decent foundations, it appears.

I am a painting fan, but the novelty wears off. Especially the long-winded process of painting double-hung sashes. Even the few in our previous house.
So, it has to be long-lasting.

If you're GII*, you can get proper lead paint, the best, Nowadays there's all the paperwork, but the lead paint I applied to the ground north windows of our house lasted 30 years. [thirty]

The best modern paint I've found is Sikkens Rubbol AZ - gloss finish is the most durable.

And although I love brown & cream, green & cream, etc, I wouldn't use a dark colour on the south face. The sun, that great enemy of wood finishes, will murder it. Perhaps cream & white.

I had green on the north casements, green & cream on the south sashes. The southerly green needed regular refreshment, the cream didn't.

Ivor

 

[paulb33]

Oh, that's lovely. Nice work.

It's GII listed, so perhaps I won't get away with lead paint? Most of the windows are very simple side hung casements. Square bars.

Hadn't occurred to me about the south facing consideration. The snow picture shows the south facing side. Yet, I took my sample from the north face. I wonder if it originally differed on each side of the house? The drawings don't seem to show a difference. And, my amateur scrapings seem to suggest dark brown on both sides.

I'm also tackling the render: getting a specialist to advise on the original finish. Its currently lathered in Dulux Exterior Gloss plastic paint. Its so important in these house to get the render finish right (as v well described in this article by Jonathan Taylor - http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/pebbledash/pebbledash.htm). Did you have to tackle that too?

Thanks for your input.

 

[88v8]

Oh, that's lovely. Nice work.

It's GII listed, so perhaps I won't get away with lead paint? Most of the windows are very simple side hung casements. Square bars.

Hadn't occurred to me about the south facing consideration. The snow picture shows the south facing side. Yet, I took my sample from the north face. I wonder if it originally differed on each side of the house? The drawings don't seem to show a difference. And, my amateur scrapings seem to suggest dark brown on both sides.

Thanks for your input. Your house looks lovely. I'm also tackling the render: getting a specialist to advise on the original finish. Its currently lathered in Dulux Exterior Gloss plastic paint. Its so important in these house to get the render finish right (as v well described in this article by Jonathan Taylor - http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/pebbledash/pebbledash.htm). Did you have to tackle that too?

Thankyou, yes it was lovely. Mind you, so it should have been after about 30,000 hours work.

The original render was lime pebbledash, one coat, no paint. When we bought it was pretty well knackered, the pebble gone, brickwork showing in places. We had it hacked off and re-pebbledashed, the builders came all the way from Essex (to us in Surrey). Essex, the home of pebbledash.
Two-coat. I knew nothing about lime back then in 1980. It was done in cement. The saving grace was that for purely visual reasons I wanted it brown, so they used soft sand. And I never painted it. Only a nutter or a masochist paints pebbledash.

No, you can't legally buy lead paint for a GII building, alas the safety crackpots have put paid to that.
On Heritage Open weekend we visited Jenner's house. That's Georgian, GII*, the interior is in OK condition but the exterior woodwork is disgracefully neglected. A member of staff blamed the cost of scaffolding, and the paperwork associated with painting. He meant the paperwork needed to get the lead paint. Much of the woodwork has been left so long it will need a lot more than paint. Disgraceful, but also a by-product of Govt interference.
http://jennermuseum.com/his-house.html

Ivor

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hadn't occurred to me about the south facing consideration. The snow picture shows the south facing side. Yet, I took my sample from the north face. I wonder if it originally differed on each side of the house? The drawings don't seem to show a difference. And, my amateur scrapings seem to suggest dark brown on both sides.

We are talking about a time when labour was very cheap, and when everyone had dark windows. They would have been dark on all sides, and should be now in my opinion.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Six bedroom, three story, with tons of faffy arts and crafts windows of all sizes....

Absolutely lovely -you're a very lucky man!

 

[paulb33]

The definition of a moneypit. But, we love it.

 

[paulb33]

We are talking about a time when labour was very cheap, and when everyone had dark windows. They would have been dark on all sides, and should be now in my opinion.

Good point. Interestingly, the paint analysis shows the windows went from dark brown to brick red to cream and then 8 layers of white. Point is, it soon lost its dark windows (travesty IMO!).

 

[plasticpigeon]

My house is a humble 3 bed terrace in Birmingham also from 1903, but I do know that the windows had light coloured sashes and dark coloured sash boxes so dark wasn't universal.

 

[paulb33]

My house is a humble 3 bed terrace in Birmingham also from 1903, but I do know that the windows had light coloured sashes and dark coloured sash boxes so dark wasn't universal.

Lovely street scene. Do you have a modern day comparison shot?