Penners
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shelli said:
Gareth Hughes said:
MdB said:
Is it me, or has this thread taken on a slightly surreal quality?
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Which era to be true to?
- Thread starter beka
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Is it me, or has this thread taken on a slightly surreal quality?
Gareth Hughes
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Penners said:shelli said:Gareth - Are you one of the Magi ? - are you harbouring Myrrh about your person?
Gareth Hughes said:standard-issue Conservation Officer omnipotence
MdB said:Gareth Hughes' father is now called Diane
Is it me, or has this thread taken on a slightly surreal quality?
Fish
OLDCOLLIER
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A lot of good sense here, but a lot of assumptions too, the main one being that COs are unquestionably a good source of advice. If 40 years of working on old buildings has taught me anything, it's the truth in the old adage that if you get ten COs in a room and ask for their opinion on something you'll get ten different opinions, a fact hit on above by whoever it was who inferred that "despite" the CO's inevitable subjectivity, they were the ones charged with exercising the power to determine what can and cannot be done to a Listed (or Conservation Area) building - and that's all that counts. It's that very subjectivity that is the root of so many complaints against COs and the legislation that gives them so much power. For the record, I am personal friends with both my COs, having established a working relationship based on mutual respect, but that doesn't preclude the occasional falling out, usually over their having expressed opposing views, one saying one thing to me when a particular case is discussed and the other saying something entirely different to the customer who has phoned them to confirm the advice I've given them based on detailed discussions with the other CO! It usually gets resolved, but at some cost in time to me (unlike a CO I'm not being paid to talk), and only because I've stifled the urge to tell them to get their effing act together.
I'm also lucky with my current COs because they've both (one female, one male) had experience in the real world, but only the one in anything connected with the building trades, architect, although there are some who would argue that that profession didn't have much to do with the building 'trades'! Her predecessor had applied to the local authority for a job, any job, and was told on being taken on that she was to be the Conservation Officer. In conversation with another joinery company boss she'd told him that she would be grateful for any advice he could give her because she knew nothing about Conservation. I knew nothing of this when I first met her because she acted with me as if she knew what she was talking about, confronting every opinion and challenging every proposed action. I remember leaving the meeting wondering what planet she'd come from.
There are the COs who see themselves as policemen, or as council 'officers' (the rest of us as 'other ranks'), there are a few like this in my neighbouring authorities. You'll know them by their insistence on the conventional conservation dogma, that mind-set which believes that if you stamp your foot hard enough you'll stop the rotation of the earth and actually reverse it, causing time to slip back into another century. That conservation dogma is a self-perpetuating delusion preached by fundamentalists devoid of even the tiniest capacity for original thought, which still surprises me given that Bernard M Feilden in his 'Conservation of Historic Buildings' (“the standard text for architects and others involved in the conservation of historic structures”) advocates an open mind and a willingness to seek alternative opinions that inform the ultimate decision.
And there is the CO who once told me: “Just let me know what you’ve done.” He was just happy to have an easy life, commissioning studies and reports published in glossy format - and serve out his time for a very good pension.
So, there’s the rub. “Which era to be true to?”. No one is right because no one is wrong, so you see, it’s Zen; the circle that will never be squared. You won’t get an answer that’s true to the question, all you can hope for is an end to the interminable discussion the question raises. Personally, I always pray for the coming of the day when common sense prevails, but that will only happen when the conservation purist stamping of feet has caused time to slip back to pre-Listed Building days, you know, the ones that put the ‘history’ into the structure?
Oh to be a Victorian tradesman, exercising my craft by just doing the bloody good job that the building needed, using all the technology available at the time without a thought for precious sensitivities, you know, the sort of work that some local authority expert, or 'civilian' pundit would consider worth preserving a hundred and ten years hence.
I'm also lucky with my current COs because they've both (one female, one male) had experience in the real world, but only the one in anything connected with the building trades, architect, although there are some who would argue that that profession didn't have much to do with the building 'trades'! Her predecessor had applied to the local authority for a job, any job, and was told on being taken on that she was to be the Conservation Officer. In conversation with another joinery company boss she'd told him that she would be grateful for any advice he could give her because she knew nothing about Conservation. I knew nothing of this when I first met her because she acted with me as if she knew what she was talking about, confronting every opinion and challenging every proposed action. I remember leaving the meeting wondering what planet she'd come from.
There are the COs who see themselves as policemen, or as council 'officers' (the rest of us as 'other ranks'), there are a few like this in my neighbouring authorities. You'll know them by their insistence on the conventional conservation dogma, that mind-set which believes that if you stamp your foot hard enough you'll stop the rotation of the earth and actually reverse it, causing time to slip back into another century. That conservation dogma is a self-perpetuating delusion preached by fundamentalists devoid of even the tiniest capacity for original thought, which still surprises me given that Bernard M Feilden in his 'Conservation of Historic Buildings' (“the standard text for architects and others involved in the conservation of historic structures”) advocates an open mind and a willingness to seek alternative opinions that inform the ultimate decision.
And there is the CO who once told me: “Just let me know what you’ve done.” He was just happy to have an easy life, commissioning studies and reports published in glossy format - and serve out his time for a very good pension.
So, there’s the rub. “Which era to be true to?”. No one is right because no one is wrong, so you see, it’s Zen; the circle that will never be squared. You won’t get an answer that’s true to the question, all you can hope for is an end to the interminable discussion the question raises. Personally, I always pray for the coming of the day when common sense prevails, but that will only happen when the conservation purist stamping of feet has caused time to slip back to pre-Listed Building days, you know, the ones that put the ‘history’ into the structure?
Oh to be a Victorian tradesman, exercising my craft by just doing the bloody good job that the building needed, using all the technology available at the time without a thought for precious sensitivities, you know, the sort of work that some local authority expert, or 'civilian' pundit would consider worth preserving a hundred and ten years hence.
Nemesis
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they've both (one female, one male) had experience in the real world,
Yeah right - at the end of the day they go back into their cotton wool wrapped boxes? They don't buy homes, go shopping, have to try to juggle the many demands of work and home life, try to please folks who haven't really a clue about historic buildings, watch their backs, cover their *rses, have to deal with elected members and planning committees, work out how to do the many things they are supposed to do as part of their jobs - report writing, keeping up to date with legislation, compiling local lists, Buildings at Risk Registers, discussions with applicants, architects... folk who think they know far more than they do as they've read a book or three... dealing with EH, giving advice on materials and methods ... -knowing all about the history of a wide variety of buildings types and their areas... it's a bit endless really... and that's when there is a CO, many authorities don't even employ anyone.
That conservation dogma is a self-perpetuating delusion preached by fundamentalists devoid of even the tiniest capacity for original thought, which still surprises me given that Bernard M Feilden in his 'Conservation of Historic Buildings' (“the standard text for architects and others involved in the conservation of historic structures”) advocates an open mind and a willingness to seek alternative opinions that inform the ultimate decision.
He's dead now of course. It's so easy to be nasty about CO's though isn't it, when you don't have to do the job?
And oh to find Victorian tradesman - blimey, they knew their jobs, of course. No jerry building then. Unlike far too many folk today, really hard to find folk I would be willing to hand over my cash to.
Yawn. All this sort of daft ranting will do is ensure that the decent CO's who do at times post here won't bother. I wonder in fact at times why any of us bother, trying to save historic buildings, why not just bulldoze the lot. Far easier.
Nemesis
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Actaully no I get very peed off with much that goes on on this site, and I'm not the only one.
And so many times I would like to tell folk what I think of what they are doing to their house, and a few 'craftspeople' what I think too, but restrain myself.
And so many times I would like to tell folk what I think of what they are doing to their house, and a few 'craftspeople' what I think too, but restrain myself.
Gareth Hughes
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shelli said:Ah come off it Nem - you love it all - all the daft ranting, all the chances to show the unconverted the error of their ways, all the people on here who do a cracking job on their houses, and fabulous work for others
Lighten up - tis almost the season to be jolly
Nemesis
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Yup.
OLDCOLLIER
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Fair comment, but you assume that we hairy-assed tradesmen aren't also doing all of those things - plus having to deal with our respective COs, oh, and earn a living that comes from having to go out and present ourselves in competition with about a dozen others, many of whom really don't care about old buildings and who you know have previously worked 'on the quiet' for the owner of a Listed Building who didn't want the hassle of dealing with "the bloody council", and it's often these people who get the job because their price is lower than yours because they're not using traditional methods and sutiable materials.
I have seen and often been called in to rectify damage done to our architectural heritage by over-zealous, purist COs. Do you know why Nemesis? Because they haven't been prepared to even consider the owner's point of view, let alone open a discussion - possibly because they've been too busy doing all the things you list as the daily concern of the CO. The intended work gets done anyway after a decent period has elapsed and the issue forgotten by the CO - and done the way the property owner wanted all along, but done on the QT by tradesmen who actually don't give a s**t.
You seem to have missed my comment about being personal friends with my local CO. She's been here for meals and barbecues. I know what she has to contend with, it's me that she knows she can turn to if she needs a second opinion; it's me that provides her with detailed survey reports and videos that allow her to make an INFORMED decision when she's too snowed under to make a site visit.
I actually managed to 'turn' a local farmer who had ordered a previous CO off his property at the end of a shotgun, a situation only saved by the calming presence of two planning inspectors from the county council whose testimony actually reversed the COs mindless decision. The same CO was physically attacked by a high-bred lady driven to distraction by his refusal to allow the re-instatement of a carved stone gatepost at the entrance to her property that had fallen over during her father's time running the farm because the building had been Listed with it not in place, sitting in one of the barns. I could fill pages of that guy's legacy to those COs who followed him. The 'turned' farmer (someone I know well and for whom I've done a lot of work because he DOES do things properly, living in a property that's been in his family for many generations, for which he has a great love, considering himself only the caretaker on behalf of future generations) did eventually listen to me because I convinced him that the current CO was worthy of his time - she didn't let me down and he is now a firm advocate of The Way. He's still doing things as he's always done, the traditional way, only with official sanction, because the CO acknowledges he's using stone mined on his own land, as it was originally used to build in the late 15th century, to convert obsolete barns into habitable dwellings. That earlier CO had insisted he block-build and render to avoid confusing the history of the property.
Nemesis, there are some total prats out there and you shouldn't be making excuses for them, nor making offensive remarks about people whose experience(s) have been different from yours and who have the temerity to express opinions formed by those experiences. It would seem that my talking about foot stamping hit a raw nerve. Sorry about that.
I have seen and often been called in to rectify damage done to our architectural heritage by over-zealous, purist COs. Do you know why Nemesis? Because they haven't been prepared to even consider the owner's point of view, let alone open a discussion - possibly because they've been too busy doing all the things you list as the daily concern of the CO. The intended work gets done anyway after a decent period has elapsed and the issue forgotten by the CO - and done the way the property owner wanted all along, but done on the QT by tradesmen who actually don't give a s**t.
You seem to have missed my comment about being personal friends with my local CO. She's been here for meals and barbecues. I know what she has to contend with, it's me that she knows she can turn to if she needs a second opinion; it's me that provides her with detailed survey reports and videos that allow her to make an INFORMED decision when she's too snowed under to make a site visit.
I actually managed to 'turn' a local farmer who had ordered a previous CO off his property at the end of a shotgun, a situation only saved by the calming presence of two planning inspectors from the county council whose testimony actually reversed the COs mindless decision. The same CO was physically attacked by a high-bred lady driven to distraction by his refusal to allow the re-instatement of a carved stone gatepost at the entrance to her property that had fallen over during her father's time running the farm because the building had been Listed with it not in place, sitting in one of the barns. I could fill pages of that guy's legacy to those COs who followed him. The 'turned' farmer (someone I know well and for whom I've done a lot of work because he DOES do things properly, living in a property that's been in his family for many generations, for which he has a great love, considering himself only the caretaker on behalf of future generations) did eventually listen to me because I convinced him that the current CO was worthy of his time - she didn't let me down and he is now a firm advocate of The Way. He's still doing things as he's always done, the traditional way, only with official sanction, because the CO acknowledges he's using stone mined on his own land, as it was originally used to build in the late 15th century, to convert obsolete barns into habitable dwellings. That earlier CO had insisted he block-build and render to avoid confusing the history of the property.
Nemesis, there are some total prats out there and you shouldn't be making excuses for them, nor making offensive remarks about people whose experience(s) have been different from yours and who have the temerity to express opinions formed by those experiences. It would seem that my talking about foot stamping hit a raw nerve. Sorry about that.
Nemesis
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Can't even be *rsed to answer really. There are total prats in all walks of life, but really, is this the best place to be rubbishing folk, some of whose number post here, comprehensively?
These daft threads about conservation basics usually end up being a waste of bandwidth, which is why many of us simply don't bother often to post in them. We got beyond chapter one of 'Conservation basics - a primer' many years ago.
I suggest beka hires herself a decent architect with conservation expertise, who can justify any application made, and bungs in the plans. Apart from that, I suspect no-one really cares much, many of us are all too busy, in our own different ways, trying to 'conserve' stuff, in the big wide world out there. So much to do, so little time.
And by the way - a perfectly valid conservation approach.
These daft threads about conservation basics usually end up being a waste of bandwidth, which is why many of us simply don't bother often to post in them. We got beyond chapter one of 'Conservation basics - a primer' many years ago.
I suggest beka hires herself a decent architect with conservation expertise, who can justify any application made, and bungs in the plans. Apart from that, I suspect no-one really cares much, many of us are all too busy, in our own different ways, trying to 'conserve' stuff, in the big wide world out there. So much to do, so little time.
That earlier CO had insisted he block-build and render to avoid confusing the history of the property.
And by the way - a perfectly valid conservation approach.
Flyfisher
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Yes, but not the only one, surely? I read OLDCOLLIERS point as being that the CO insisted on a very specific approach, which can understandably cause tensions (and turned out not to be the only acceptable alternative anyway).Nemesis said:That earlier CO had insisted he block-build and render to avoid confusing the history of the property.
And by the way - a perfectly valid conservation approach.
There will surely be a number of acceptable options for any given historic property and it must be better for the CO to provide their expert guidance on what those possibilities are and to allow the property owner the final choice in terms of what they would prefer. All sides are then happy.
Nemesis
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Yeah, whatever.
Nemesis
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Yeah yeah.
It's a mad world out there, and some of us do our best to try to make some sense out of it for some, but clearly - knock the CO is flavour of the week, and I cannot be bothered any more to even try to reply. No wonder we have so few CO's post here any more, or indeed many with a wide experience of conservation.
Flyfisher.
So we try not to join in much nowadays, just in case.
That part's offensive though.
It's a mad world out there, and some of us do our best to try to make some sense out of it for some, but clearly - knock the CO is flavour of the week, and I cannot be bothered any more to even try to reply. No wonder we have so few CO's post here any more, or indeed many with a wide experience of conservation.
This forum is in danger of becoming a PR disaster for property conservation (if it hasn't already) due to the sort of exchanges that interested but inexperienced people will come to expect from 'stalwarts' ...
Flyfisher.
So we try not to join in much nowadays, just in case.
nor making offensive remarks about people whose experience(s) have been different from yours and who have the temerity to express opinions formed by those experiences. It would seem that my talking about foot stamping hit a raw nerve. Sorry about that.
That part's offensive though.
Nemesis
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No, we don't. The site has become a bit of a disaster for conservation, certainly, but partly that's because, when some of us try to answer the hard stuff, others don't like the tough love.
There's an awful lot of stuff posted here which gets left now, dodgy advice, people don't want to wade in, and it's getting worse. There's too much going on in the 'real' world to spend time arguing here. So we'll stick to the silly season stories from now on, I suspect, if we bother at all.
There's an awful lot of stuff posted here which gets left now, dodgy advice, people don't want to wade in, and it's getting worse. There's too much going on in the 'real' world to spend time arguing here. So we'll stick to the silly season stories from now on, I suspect, if we bother at all.
OLDCOLLIER
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Nemesis, if you'd made that 'sensible' contribution to start with, you're right, a lot of bandwidth could have been saved. My comments were prompted by the assertion that COs are infallible, no one appearing to qualify that. Quite what the fact that Feilden is dead has to do with anything is anybody's guess. And as for the conservation primer crack, I wrote some of it!
At least some of the respondents to my posting had actually read it and given it some thought, for which many thanks for the courtesy.
Nemesis, the Greek goddess of retribution; any agency of retribution and vengeance: righteous wrath, from nemein to distribute what is due. Any significance there? You're not a CO by any chance? Never!
At least some of the respondents to my posting had actually read it and given it some thought, for which many thanks for the courtesy.
Nemesis, the Greek goddess of retribution; any agency of retribution and vengeance: righteous wrath, from nemein to distribute what is due. Any significance there? You're not a CO by any chance? Never!
Nemesis
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Well, naturally, I bow to your superiority. Heavens, to have written some of it - well, how amazing. So from now on you can plod on answering all those questions about conservation.
No, I'm not a CO, nor indeed a chippy, although I could start a thread about those I have known and loathed, and as I have said on many occasions - it's also the name of a roller coaster.
But I used to be interested in the health of this forum, unlike you, clearly.
No, I'm not a CO, nor indeed a chippy, although I could start a thread about those I have known and loathed, and as I have said on many occasions - it's also the name of a roller coaster.
But I used to be interested in the health of this forum, unlike you, clearly.
Penners
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This is a theme that's been covered quite frequently on this forum, and it is, of course, quite true. But it's also inevitable.OLDCOLLIER said:the truth in the old adage that if you get ten COs in a room and ask for their opinion on something you'll get ten different opinions
There's no such thing as a book of rules for what is, or is not, permitted in period property repair/conservation/renovation. The disparate nature of these properties makes such a hard-and-fast concept utterly impossible. Every building is different - every owner's plans for their building are different.
So all the CO has to work with are broad principles, which will vary enormously in their relevance and application for every individual property. This means that the CO's own views, based on training/experience in the principles, will always lead to considerable variations in the application of them.
As a strictly amateur period property enthusiast, it's been my experience that the popularity of a CO is in inverse proportion to the extent to which listed building owners wish to carve their buildings about.
This is an oft-repeated phrase, but the CO's first duty is to the building, and not to the owner.
Nemesis
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the popularity of a CO is in inverse proportion to the extent to which listed building owners wish to carve their buildings about.
This is an oft-repeated phrase, but the CO's first duty is to the building, and not to the owner.
Yup. And OK maybe some are better than others, some more experienced, but I've found that in all walks of life, especially in the building trades. In the end, as we keep saying, we can give some general advice here, but nothing hard and fast, general principles only. It's up to the punter to justify, on the grounds of history and architecture, the things they wish to do to a building. By golly I've read some rubbish in my time regarding that too, but that's for another day.
And I wonder if, having imbibed a bit, some CO's would like to tell us of their experiences with 'clients'?