Timber spouting

[Penners]

I learnt to my considerable cost and irritation no roofer will be able to work with purely what's there unless the house shrinks at the same time. I was told repeatedly that all the slate that came off my roof would go back on, but then they simply ran out of slates and knocked on my door asking me to get another 200 and call them when they arrived!

I suspect that you were dealing with a roofer's poor communication, rather than any bad workmanship or dishonesty. It's pretty well impossible to strip a roof without having some slates/tiles damaged. This is particularly true where slates are nailed on (as is normal). Getting the nails out adds to the damage toll.

Your roofer should have explained that to you more clearly.

 

[johnandrew]

A little update.

I have divided the project up in to three parts: Timber selection and supply, timber moulding and finishing, and installation and maintenance.

Timber selections and supply

I found a very helpful chap called Gavin at Boatbuilding Timber Supplieswho has suggested that elm might not be that appropriate for guttering. It's very durable when permanently wet but may rot more quickly in the wetting and drying cycle gutters will be exposed to. He has suggested oak, western red cedar and cypress. I am leaning towards the western red cedar at the moment. Another very helpful timber merchant has been Sykes in Birmingham. They thought western red cedar a very good choice.

Timber moulding and finishing

I have found a pattern maker who says he is able to produce the profile I want, although I might modify the profile posted early.

I intend to finish the gutter with linseed oil on the interior water holding bit, and hopefully (money allowing) linseed oil paint on the visible part.

Finishing and installation

We had a roofing contracor around yesterday to chat to us. He is going to prepare an estimate/quote (can't remember which). At the rear of the hose the gutters are about 4.5 storeys high (see photo - but no comments about the unoriginal stained wooden windows, they are in my sights) so it will be a scoffolding job. This in itself has me pondering how maintenance will be carried out at such a height without getting scaffolding put up every year or two. Maybe I should arrive at a satisfactory answer to this before proceeding.



And to add more frustration to the pot my other half has got wind of my little project and has started asking questions about why we have to have wood and cast iron and why can't we have what everyone else has, ie plastic. And as she is the one who earns the money I do have to justify my little projects,


Will add more as the project progresses.

John

 

[Penners]

This in itself has me pondering how maintenance will be carried out at such a height without getting scaffolding put up every year or two.

That's a tall house, and I suspect it will be difficult to get upper-level maintenance work carried out without having to erect scaffolding on every occasion.

Sorry if this is blindingly obvious, but if you're having to hire scaffolding for a roofer, you can potentially save yourself a fair chunk of money by ensuring that everything above ladder height is attended to while that scaffolding is in place.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Linseed paint goes miles. It isn't so expensive that you would be worrying about it.

After seven years it will only need a coat or two of oil. After another seven years some more paint.

No other paint allows that kind of "neglect".

Not sure just linseed oil in the gutter will be enough. As it keeps sinking in, sort of.

Also how do you currently check and clear your gutters at that great height?

I hate plastic gutters with a vengeance but a stupid farmer I know pointed out the ONE advantage. He said they are so smooth inside they pretty much keep themselves clear.

 

[Penners]

I hate plastic gutters with a vengeance but a stupid farmer I know pointed out the ONE advantage. He said they are so smooth inside they pretty much keep themselves clear.

Well, I'm not keen on them, either. But I must add another advantage - they never need painting.

 

[johnandrew]

Thanks Schoolmarm

I know people sometimes paint the inside of the gutter with bitumen paint, but I don't know whether that might seal the surface and cause more problems in the long run, hence my leaning towards oiling.

We have only been in the house for about 4 months so have not had to maintain the gutters as yet. Apart from reinstating a rainwater gulley, this is my first project. From the looks of them they weren't maintained at all by the previous owners. And talking to our nextdoor neighbour this morning they haven't been mainting theirs either - also because of the height of the gutters.

I am thinking that there must be a system that I can hang out of the top windows. Some sort of platform. Might have to invent one.

Our current gutters are plastic and looking at them this morning during heavy rain they were full up and leaking in various places.
I don't think they were installed very well.

 

[Flyfisher]

I have to say that given the height of that house I would be looking for guttering with the maximum maintenance-free features, even if it was plastic. No one will be able to tell the difference up there anyway and it's far more important for the guttering to do its job than to look pretty.

If you have vehicle access around the house then it would be worth considering a cherry-picker for maintenance because scaffolding isn't going to be cheap.

 

[AMc]

. And talking to our nextdoor neighbour this morning they haven't been mainting theirs either - also because of the height of the gutters.

I am thinking that there must be a system that I can hang out of the top windows. Some sort of platform. Might have to invent one.

If clearing the gutters and exterior maintenance are going to an ongoing DIY commitment you could consider getting your own scaffolding and perhaps sharing the expense with your neighbour. Tradesmen are unlikely to want to use home constructed stuff and may insist on either hiring in or getting a safety inspection, you can make your own decisions based on your own risk assessment for DIY.

You can find ads for scaffolding for sale in the back of the self building magazines. I've helped to construct and dismantle cuploc (?) which was fairly foolproof but I only had to go up 2.5 storeys and was assisting builders who used it every day.

Still that's a long way up (or more importantly down) so only go that route if you're confident, same with long ladders.

 

[Schoolmarm]

I hate plastic gutters with a vengeance but a stupid farmer I know pointed out the ONE advantage. He said they are so smooth inside they pretty much keep themselves clear.

Well, I'm not keen on them, either. But I must add another advantage - they never need painting.

That's funny! The same stupid farmer wanted me to paint the ancient ones on the outside loo at my daughter's house :lol: :lol: I refused on the grounds that it was cheaper to buy a new section,really tiny, than pay him to paint it.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I have to say that given the height of that house I would be looking for guttering with the maximum maintenance-free features, even if it was plastic. No one will be able to tell the difference up there anyway and it's far more important for the guttering to do its job than to look pretty.

If you have vehicle access around the house then it would be worth considering a cherry-picker for maintenance because scaffolding isn't going to be cheap.

I agree with Flyfisher, much as I love wooden guttering - sorry. I just don't think it would make that much difference visually, it will cost a fortune, and that money could be put into the windows!

Obviously it's your house, none of my business really! And you will have to solve the problem of accessing the higher reaches whether you get wooden guttering or not.

Handsome house, by the way.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

johnandrew,

After a quick skim through this thread I can't help thinking that you may be barking up the wrong tree.

Seeing the picture of your house it's obvious that at that sort of height nobody is going to be able to see any gutter detailing, or indeed what material has been used. Also, given the access problem you need to be looking at a "fit and forget" solution. I am not convinced that a timber gutter would provide this.

I would be looking at some of the better plastic systems (not the diy store crap) or preferrably fibreglass (Yeoman is a name that comes to mind). The village church here has fibreglass guttering in a traditional ogee profile with lugged hoppers etc., which has given good service for over 20 years. From ground level it looks like cast iron. I clean it out from a cherry-picker once a year, but that's only because the church grounds are heavily wooded and the leaf fall is a problem. On your property I doubt the guttering would need cleaning, assuming it was laid to good falls.

As a woodworker with experience if wooden boat construction I know how difficult it is to get wood to perform well in a wetting-drying cycle. Frankly there are better materials for making guttering. I feel that timber guttering would only be justified for visual effect near ground level or if the listing or historic value of a building demanded a 'museum standard' approach. Otherwise a pragmatic approach is called for.

If you do pursue the wood option then you could save money by omitting the decorative profile on the front face - at that height this would barely be visible. The round-over on the bottom face you can do yourself with a £100 router and a £20 router bit, though again it'll be hard to see. I'd recommend balcotan PU glue for gluing the three planks together into the box section, with a splined joint to provide alignment and water-tightness. Avoid introducing metallic fasteners if possible as these will be a source of trouble at a later date - the glue would be sufficient if you clamp the joints properly during curing. I'd not bother about oiling the inside.

Interesting access! Even scaffolding is going to be tricky on the elevation shown due to the balcony / verandah. The ground looks unsuitable for a big mobile platform. What sort of height is it to guttering level? Abseil over from the other side perhaps?

 

[johnandrew]

Thankyou all for your thoughtful and thought provoking comments.

The guttering on the taller part of the house on the rear is about 13 metres above the garden level. About 42 feet, I think.

Maybe I can/should make ammendments to my plan for guttering at the rear. The guttering at the front is not as high (the garden used to be a mill pond, hence the low level) and perhaps I could still get that elevation done in timber and cast iron.

However, I'm not sure how any gutter will be maintenance free. The current gutters are blocked and some have plant matter growing in them. Surely, I would need to get them cleaned out every so often, and that would require access of some sort.

Abseiling has been suggested by the local landlord!

John

 

[Cloudscape]

I hate plastic gutters with a vengeance but a stupid farmer I know pointed out the ONE advantage. He said they are so smooth inside they pretty much keep themselves clear.

Well, I'm not keen on them, either. But I must add another advantage - they never need painting.

That's the odd thing... apparently you are supposed to paint plastic guttering after installing it. The same with exterior plastic pipework. Quite why... I've never figured out. And I've never bothered.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

Johnandrew,

However, I'm not sure how any gutter will be maintenance free. The current gutters are blocked and some have plant matter growing in them. Surely, I would need to get them cleaned out every so often, and that would require access of some sort.

13m is not as bad as I'd guessed from the photo. Do you have vehicle access to the rear garden? If so then many hire companies have small trailer-mounted cherry pickers which typically work up to 13m, some up to 17m. These are ideal for the type of access needed for gutter cleaning, window works etc, and are typically £250 for a week's hire. Bear in mind that most hirers require operators to be trained with an IPAF licence; a one day course is about £200. Then you need a vehicle capable of towing 2000Kg, and probably some winching gear to get it positioned on site. However, if you're planning a lot of diy work at height it may be worth investing in the training and safety gear, and seeing what equipment is available locally. Job for the summer when the ground is dry and firm.

If the front elevation is more visible then that would be the place to concentrate on some showpiece timber guttering. How do you envisage making the joins between sections?

 

[johnandrew]

Andrew

Thanks for the info on the cherry picker things. Unfortunately, there is no vehicular access to the rear of the property - a real problem.

As for joining the timber, this has me a bit concerned. I have seen the Blue Ox Mill page on gutter installation which has detailed instructions and recommends scarf joints but I don't have the skills/experience to do this myself.

Also, I'm not sure if it needs to be fixed to the wall through the back of the gutter or whether it can just sit on the stone supports.

John

 

[wobs]

Just thought I would resurrect this thread to say I was getting a quote for some wooden guttering, and was shown a plastic gutter with a profile very similar to a typical wooden design. It was moulded (or extruded) so that it had a hollow interior with ribs to reinforce it inside.

While more expensive than the wood option, I would have considered it if my house was too high for easy maintenance, as it would give a similar visual appearance, and it looked much stronger than a regular plastic gutter.

Something like this, but uncertain if it was this company:
http://www.twinplas.co.uk/products/gutter_profile.htm