Timber spouting

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, God, you can really see why people go for plastic can't you? Glad you're getting somewhere with it though.

JoceAndChris: Is your guttering machined from a solid chunk or made from planks? How long is the longest section?

I don't completely follow your question, but you can see from the shape of my house that I don't have long 10m runs.

Because the house is composed of so many protrusions and hexagons the guttering has been cut to follow its shape, meaning there are joins on each corner, which is neat and actually poses no problem with drips. (though I do know that welding the lead guttering at weak points was a yearly job) The longest section is 3.80 metres. One plank sits flat against the wall. The plank which supports the lead gutter on top of it appears to be a separate plank. Stuck onto it, which you can just about see in the first pic I posted, are evenly spaced squares of wood, a kind of moulding, which, according to Gareth Hughes, are called mutules.

I think it's quite different to what you had in mind. Good luck!

 

[David Dyer]

You could probably reduce the cost of timber by making your design slightly smaller by say 6mm to 94 x 144 which can be machined from 100 x 150mm (4 x 6 inches) whereas the size you show will need 4.5 x 7 if it's available or maybe 5 x 7 a saving of at least 23% in volume.
Arnold Laver show 4 sizes of softwood guttering in their catalogue maybe if the shape suits (it's a bit different to your drawing) you could persuade them to machine it in hardwood I've found them quite helpful when I've need odd sizes for testing.

 

[Flyfisher]

That's a great photo, Joce, and helps to show how much work was involved with your gutters. They certainly look good.

Would I be right in assuming that these gutters are lead-lined? In which case, does the type of wood matter that much? Obviously the more durable the better, but could they actually be made from any wood?

Another question; the earlier mention of 'lead welding' implies that the gutters are effectively formed from a solid 'trough' of lead. That makes perfect sense for water containment, of course, but how does such a construction cope with thermal expansion? I've done a bit of lead work on our roof and there are maximum lengths defined for sections of lead in valleys etc, precisely to allow for thermal expansion and prevent the lead buckling and splitting. This is not a problem on a roof where water is only being directed rather than contained and separate sections can be easily overlapped.

So what's the secret with lead guttering?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Much as I would love to be able to post a coherent response to all that FF, it's utterly beyond me I'm afraid. You are right that my gutters are effectively formed from a solid trough of lead. But, I haven't been up there yet as I'm not very happy on the top rung of our ladder... I believe the lead is divided into sections and that periodically it cracks and needs repair at the joins. Also, at least every 3 months, you have to clear these gutters of leaves or you get a flood in the porch.

We chucked out all the welding equipment he left us, cursing him for dumping us with all his scabby old cr*p. Then he phoned up a week later and said we'd need the welding equpment to repair the lead guttering. I draw the line at welding though.

 

[Penners]

Much as I would love to be able to post a coherent response to all that FF, it's utterly beyond me I'm afraid.

Oh God - not the sloe gin again...?

 

[Flyfisher]

That lead guttering does sound very high maintenance; not the clearing of leaves particularly but the periodic welding. My worry would be to know when it needed welding as, I assume, a leak would not be immediately obvious as the wood would contain much of the water, which could lead to other problems.

 

[JoceAndChris]

You're completely right as usual, but the guttering having a leak seems like a trivial matter when you consider that the rain either pours into the roof, or runs down and creeps behind this guttering all over the house, saturating the cracked and perishing cement render and then running into the trapped unbreathing stone of the building, where it then remains. I try not to think about it, too depressing - as the only cure seems to be remove the roof, re roof, remove the guttering, remove the cement render- you get my drift. Enough complaining.

 

[Flyfisher]

That all sounds rather ominous. I hope you have plans to get the roof fixed fairly soon. Having spent a good portion of the last two years clambering around at roof level fixing our roof I can confirm how damaging a constantly leaking roof can be, particularly where water can pool or is trapped. Until the roof is working effectively there is little point addressing damp walls etc (except for spot-issues such as your leaking shower).

 

[JoceAndChris]

Hmmm. I'm very confused about what to do long term. A number of people have been out to look at the roof. All the high end of the market ones who do beautiful historic rooves in Rutland etc say the roof needs to be completely dismantled and done again, they say it's a complete DIY bodge. All the cheap roofers are happy to squirt in a bit of mastic (sp?) here and there. It's very difficult to know who or what to believe. I also don't really know what order to things in - roof/ render/ leaking rainwater tank (?)/ cement downstairs?

Glad you've been getting your roof sorted though, well done.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Roof first. Always.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks 'Marm! Need to find a roofer I can trust, who'd be prepared to use the slate that's there.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Definitely and one skilled enough to make the edges run into the gutter. You might be able to get by for a while if someone can insert a strip of roofing felt under the eaves and lapping into the gutter. It doesn't stand up to weather for long though. Or there is a plastic (oh no) product which does that job and is pushed under the edge of roof. I have got some on a teeny roof here.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's very helpful - no-one's said that before. It does need a temporary fix until we can get 12 k together - the quote from the posh roofer to replace. That included selling my slate, though, and replacing it with something more available, which I now realise (many thanks to this forum) would be wrong.

 

[Flyfisher]

Patching with mastic has it's place as a temporary fix but can also cause longer term problems, especially if applied from within the roof, i.e. doesn't actually prevent the rain getting in, just traps it against the timbers. I think I've posted this picture before but am not sure where. It shows the timbers around one of our chimneys where rain had been seeping in between the chimney and the tiles for some time (there was no lead flashing and gap was filled with cement mortar that had cracked over time). The remnants of expanding foam applied from within the roof can be clearly seen and although this foam stopped the rain from entering the roof space it also trapped it against the roof timbers causing the almost total rotting of the affected timbers. The other timbers had also been getting wet but they had the chance to dry out so were in far better condition. This was quite an eye-opener and convinced me that the only real way to fix a leaking roof is from above.

If you have a problem with the roof not discharging into the gutters then I like Schoolmarm's idea of a temporary fix. It might even be something you or Chris could easily do, depending on how easy it is to lift the bottom slates just enough to insert some sort of roof felt under the tiles and into the gutters. Definitely worth considering as a temporary fix and it would allow the affected walls to start drying out immediately while waiting for the permanent fix.

 

[Penners]

expanding foam applied from within the roof can be clearly seen and although this foam stopped the rain from entering the roof space it also trapped it against the roof timbers causing the almost total rotting of the affected timbers.

I wonder what that says about the widely-advertised process of applying expanding foam to the underside of your roof "to insulate and stabilise it".

It's perhaps OK* in situations where the roof timbers are in good condition and dry, but given that some of the names of such processes carry an implication of renovation, presumably they're trying to sell it into older houses with deteriorated roofs.

Hmmm...


*Provided the ventilation question is addressed.

 

[JoceAndChris]

That's a brilliant picture Flyfisher, and just goes to show what good these heal-all DIY products do! Thanks goodness you found it, and no doubt fixed it!

Thanks very much for the advice regarding my roof. I'm unclear how feasible it would be to implement Schoolmarm's suggestion without going up on ladders and having a really good look. It's on the Things to Do List...

According to the roofer all that's keeping us dry is the fabric stuff lying underneath the slate. The slates have not been lapped over one another sufficiently, and have been laid in wrong patterns.

I think we're also predominantly dry here because we're so blessed geographically, on top of the hill is a windy site - laundry dries in an hour. Breezes blow through the house whether windows are open or not. There's not too much rain in Lincs, and the soil is exceptionally free draining. When I excavated around the bottom of the walls the soil was as dry as you could wish. If those factors were different I dread to think what would have happened to the house given all the butchery it's undergone in the last 60 years!

 

[AMc]

Thanks 'Marm! Need to find a roofer I can trust, who'd be prepared to use the slate that's there.

As I learnt to my considerable cost and irritation no roofer will be able to work with purely what's there unless the house shrinks at the same time. I was told repeatedly that all the slate that came off my roof would go back on, but then they simply ran out of slates and knocked on my door asking me to get another 200 and call them when they arrived!

After a lot of internet searching, phoning reclaimation yards as far away as Belfast & Cornwall, getting Chinese and Brazilian samples I managed to find a supply of reclaimed slates the right size (wide duchess 12"x24") and originally quarried in Wales. When I went (with cash in hand) to collect them from a field near Kings Lynn the seller found he'd been sold a pup. The pallet only had half the grey slate I needed with the rest packed out with smaller slates. Thankfully my roof was already a mix of purple and grey and he was able to make the rest up in purple which we intermixed. He also told me that you should expect to replace 1/3rd of the slates when you reroof.

Total cost was £2 a slate in cash (IIRC). I was at one point quoted £8 a slate for the same basic requirement (IIRC). Even Chinese slate which I was loathed to consider was £1.80 a slate + VAT and I'd have to order a full pallet. New Welsh slate wasn't available at all in Wide Duchess 'due to lack of demand'.

If you are going to need to strip and reslate then I would start looking on Salvo etc. now working on the assumption that you will need to replace roughly 1/3rd of what's up there and spares are worth their weight in gold in some sizes.

(Sorry to the original poster for drifting the thread even further from the original topic. I would also check out local joinery companies for quotes on producing made up lengths of guttering)

 

[JoceAndChris]

If you are going to need to strip and reslate then I would start looking on Salvo etc. now working on the assumption that you will need to replace roughly 1/3rd of what's up there and spares are worth their weight in gold in some sizes.

A very timely piece of advice, thanks AMc. That probably explains why there weren't enough tiles to do a proper job.

My slates have got little hand cut pegs and holes in them. Would I need to find the same?

And apologies to the original poster too - come back and steal this thread back again when you want to!

 

[Flyfisher]

According to the roofer all that's keeping us dry is the fabric stuff lying underneath the slate.

That's certainly the case with our roof as well, but that's because it's not possible to get a totally waterproof seal with pantiles; there is always a small gap (and sometimes not so small!) where rain can be blown in, although vertical rain should be fully captured by the tiles. Still, there's plenty of ventilation under the tiles!

I've no experience of slate tiles but I needed to buy about an additional 15% of our tiles during repairs, mainly because the existing ones were too badly damaged, mostly where cement mortar had been used in an attempt to waterproof some areas and it was impossible to chip off without damaging or breaking the tile.

If you do need to buy reclaimed tiles then do shop around. I eventually paid 85p for mine but had seen them for £2+VAT, so quite a price difference.

 

[Flyfisher]

I wonder what that says about the widely-advertised process of applying expanding foam to the underside of your roof "to insulate and stabilise it".

It's perhaps OK* in situations where the roof timbers are in good condition and dry, but given that some of the names of such processes carry an implication of renovation, presumably they're trying to sell it into older houses with deteriorated roofs.

Hmmm...

Hmmm indeed. I've seen those adverts and have always thought the process looks horrendous, even before I gained what little experience of roof work I now have. It would certainly insulate the roof but only at the cost of never being able to inspect the timbers ever again. And if a leak ever did occur, the water would be trapped under the foam and I can't see how it would be detected until considerable damage had been done to the roof timbers.