The philosophy of repairing previous repairs.

[Andys]

Flyfisher makes a good point but surely sooner or later a uPVC window will end up getting listed somewhere. We might have to treat them like the inappropriate Georgian sash windows sometimes grafted onto Tudor buildings...

 

[MikeG]

That's misunderstanding listing. All it will mean is applying for permission to change the window. I doesn't mean you won't be able to change a uPVC window.

But the principle is what is at stake here. How valuable were the old repairs?

 

[Flyfisher]

I think Andys' point is a fair one. OK, changes to anything on a listed building can be applied for, but the question is would consent be granted? And his example of inappropriate Georgian sash windows grafted onto Tudor buildings is one that I live with every day as our house was 'butchered' in that very way, with great lumps of close-studded oak being cut out and destroyed to make room for them. I bet that work would not have been given LBC had such a thing existed a few hundred years ago.

So yes, what is at stake in this wall example and how valuable were the old repairs? I would say that on day one the 'repairs' had little or no value because they were nothing more than a bodge job, completely unsympathetic to the original wall and the sort of thing that would have meant big trouble for the owner responsible if the wall had been listed. Yes, they could have applied for permission to repair the wall in that unsympathetic manner but I'm betting - at the time it was done - we'd all agree that consent should not be granted for such butchery and only an 'honest' like-for-like repair would have been acceptable.

But, move on 50, 80, 100 years (or however long ago the butchery took place) and these bodges now seem to have magically acquired some 'architectural merit' worth saving for posterity.

So what are we really trying to protect? Original fabric or just any 'old' thing no matter what? And how old does 'old' have to be to qualify?

 

[MikeG]

I don't think we're trying to protect and preserve the original building. I think we're trying to protect and preserve its history, and that history includes repairs and alterations. So why does one period of history (the distant past) take precedence over another (the current era or recent past)? That's the question that everyone involved with old buildings is wrestling with constantly, I suppose. The answer I think involves the idea that we have a dwindling amount of ancient stuff, more but dwindling really old stuff, a reasonable amount of old-ish stuff, and huge amounts of Georgian, Victorian and later stuff. Obviously we need to ensure that what little ancient stuff we have remains intact.

 

[Mickey]

If you look back at all the initial photos of that wall you'll notice no 'arrow slits' to the left of that downpipe, there ain't nothing 'honest' about those arrow slits and that's putting it mildly!

 

[Flyfisher]

As I've said before, I don't really like barn conversions, but given that this barn has been converted then it would seem reasonable to have some windows inserted into the walls - so what sort of Windows would you suggest? At least arrow slots are in keeping with a barn, rather than something much larger.

 

[Flyfisher]

I don't think we're trying to protect and preserve the original building. I think we're trying to protect and preserve its history, and that history includes repairs and alterations. So why does one period of history (the distant past) take precedence over another (the current era or recent past)? That's the question that everyone involved with old buildings is wrestling with constantly, I suppose. The answer I think involves the idea that we have a dwindling amount of ancient stuff, more but dwindling really old stuff, a reasonable amount of old-ish stuff, and huge amounts of Georgian, Victorian and later stuff. Obviously we need to ensure that what little ancient stuff we have remains intact.

If we're trying to preserve history, bodges and all, then in 100 years time will that include today's unsympathetic uPVC or Crittal windows etc? Presumably it should, as an historical record of today's bodges.

Having said that, the listing system will actually distort the historical record by preventing (or attempting to) such bodges in the first place. Thus, this wall in question would never have been given consent to be repaired in such a manner had it been listed and such a bodge would (should) have had corrective action enforced so that it was repaired sensitively and in line with what has been done by the current owners. Likewise, our house would never have been butchered to insert its Georgian Windows (or perhaps having a thatched rood replaced with pantiles).

So, perversely, the listing system could wipe out the historical tradition of vernacular repairs and alterations that you're saying are so important that, in the case of this wall anyway, they should be preserved warts and all. Unintended consequences?

Perhaps the real problem is that such judgements inevitably end up being decided based on the personal opinions of the people in charge of each project, leading to little or no consistency across the board. Thus, an unsympathetic Crittal window (for example) may be given consent to be replaced by one CO but another may insist on it being preserved as an example of 'history'. Then there is the whole other question of what is currently fashionable, which can lead to historically inaccurate changes to period properties such as exposed/stripped beams, bare brick walls and stripped pine furniture etc.

But as I've mentioned before, there are very few people who really wish to live in a truly authentic period property. It would simply be too uncomfortable and unacceptable for modern living!

It's certainly an interesting dilemma.

 

[Mickey]

I am not sure the non merits of crittal windows can be lumped together with upvc, our old cottage had one crittal which had lovely wavy bubbly glass, who knows if this glass was reused from something older however, it added to the charm of our cottage in the same way the original ledge and brace front door did, I can't think anyone is ever going to see the charm in a upvc window, I could be wrong of course. We sold that cottage and when I went back recently I noticed both that crittal and the old front door had been replaced. It wasn't listed but was in a consv. area, it made me sad. I would bet a pound to a penny they replaced that old front door with a half glazed job (prob double) because they wanted more light into the living room. This is my point, it was a cottage, it was dark, if you are not into that aesthetic then you should be asking yourself why you are buying it, not thinking of ways to erase history to mould it into the thing you really want. I agree this is all just personal opinion but I just thought that building deserved a little more sympathetic treatment. However, those windows will stand them in good stead if ever they are besieged and need to fire out the odd arrow

 

[MikeG]

Yeah, steady on with the Crittall windows. They aren't much different from blacksmith made metal frames which were commonly fitted with leaded panes in ancient timber framed houses in this area for a very long time. Further, they can be renovated these days to include seals and galvanising, polyester powder coating, and even double glazing, and they have a lovely slim profile. I can't say I am unbiased, as they were designed by my father...

 

[CliffordPope]

Regardless of philosophy, the old wall had character, this one has none.

 

[Flyfisher]

As far as I can tell, the newly repaired wall is now a faithfully and sensitively restored version of the original wall; same materials, same techniques, same design.

You seem to be suggesting that at the time it was built the original wall had no character and only acquired it because of some badly executed and insensitive bodged repairs.

It's a point of view, I suppose, but it also supports my earlier suggestion that the listing process is detrimental to historical changes that lead to such 'character', because if the wall had been listed then such bodged repairs would never have been allowed and the wall would still look exactly as it now does today, ie 'characterless'.

Perhaps our timber 1550 frame house would also be deemed to be 'characterless' if it had not been hacked about over the centuries and had remained completely unchanged for 450 years? :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

Yeah, steady on with the Crittall windows. They aren't much different from blacksmith made metal frames which were commonly fitted with leaded panes in ancient timber framed houses in this area for a very long time. Further, they can be renovated these days to include seals and galvanising, polyester powder coating, and even double glazing, and they have a lovely slim profile. I can't say I am unbiased, as they were designed by my father...

That's sort of my point about uPVC Windows. They are just another stage in the long evolution of metal Windows (instead of polyester powder coating they are plastic covered aluminium frames) so why would they have no historic value in the future? This seems to be an example of fashion (or rather non-fashion) overriding principles; it makes things very confusing and inconsistent.

No offence meant to your father btw!

 

[MikeG]

........they are plastic covered aluminium frames......

Most of them don't have any aluminium. Those tend to be reserved for doors and bay windows, or overly-large windows. Or ****** conservatories. (I shouldn't whinge about plastic conservatories. I get a reasonable amount of work designing decent replacements for plastic conservatories).

 

[Flyfisher]

Ah, I didn't realise some of them were pure plastic. :shock:

They must be even more evolved than I previously suggested. :wink:

 

[CliffordPope]

Perhaps our timber 1550 frame house would also be deemed to be 'characterless' if it had not been hacked about over the centuries and had remained completely unchanged for 450 years? :wink:

Probably yes. It would be a museum.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Personally, I think the wall looks good. I hate the door and roof lights. why don't people use dormers rather than velux windows. It is easy to make a horrible dormer too, but can a velux window ever be nice? The roof looks very pristine, were the slates cut with a grinder or other machine? I re roofed my bay and cut the slates with a hand held slate cutter to get the same edge that a slaters axe would give so it looks more textured as the edges arent so square. I wonder if it will ever weather in. The arrow slits are unintrusive and look to have been done nicely. I even like the tiles used around the arrow slits.

 

[MikeG]

Well in the case of a barn conversion, barns didn't have dormers. Secondly, the means of getting planning permission in this case is a new variant on Permitted Development, and whilst it recognises the right to insert windows, changing the fundamental shell of the building (by adding extensions, altering the roofline, adding dormers, and so on) is often an excuse to disallow the project. The only option for light upstairs in this project was rooflights. I agree, though, that the chosen ones (Velux) are rather ugly, standing up above the roofline as they do. I much prefer Conservation Rooflights, which is what I put on the drawings. As it's a self-build (ie there is no contract), I don't get a say in the matter once I hand over the drawings.