The philosophy of repairing previous repairs.

[plasticpigeon]

Slight drift, but here is a picture of a house near me that I really covet. It is a little ropey, but I love it. There is what I think is probably an extension to the left. It is in exactly the same style as the main house, right down to the details of the bricks at the eves and fancy rubbed arches. However it is set back and slightly smaller than the main house, and looks all the better for it. It is subservient as they say. If it was a big long flat extension with bricks toothed in and the roofline the same, the symmetry of the main house would be lost, so i think this is a really good approach. Also a garage has been added later, and not very well as the huge concrete lintel goes straight through either a window or doorway, and the arch is still visible hanging above. I've wondered whether I would want to change the garage part if I was ever lucky enough to own that house, but I've come to the conclusion that it is just fine as it is.

 

[JoceAndChris]

It looks gorgeous but also a whopper! Imagine the cleaning! And the cost of paint and antiques and paintings and heating and and ...
Would not like to live in a house I could not afford to the interior of in the manner it deserves.
Is that a modern extension? It doesn't look it. I wonder if it was all made in the early part of the 20thC. I agree it's a lovely addition and well balanced and with carefully observed detailing!

 

[MikeG]

Yep, that's nice, and a nice illustration of the concept. I'd have tried to avoid the clumsy conjunction of lintels at ground floor level, but that aside, nice. And commonplace, too.

The thing that adherents to the idea of running the wall and rooflines through (rather than setting back and down) overlook is that even if you found exactly the same brick and roofing material you would get an ugly contrast at the join-line, because one had been standing in place weathering for possibly centuries, whilst the other was fresh out of a packet, or had been previously used in a different location and orientation. The little set-back solves that issue.

 

[MikeG]

......I'd see what's common on local humble buildings and go with that personally. Plain 9" clay tiles or perhaps pantiles. Nothing fancy, just plain & simple. Handmade rather than machine made, or older reclaimed machine made - Victorian machine made wasn't as well QC controlled as todays's stuff and tended to vary a bit in size and curvature - would help give a bit of character. New machine made plain tiles would be very uniform in appearance.

Around here the vernacular tends (it isn't absolute by any means) towards pantiles on outbuildings, and plain tiles on houses, with slate being found on both.

Handmade clay plains are my favourite tile, but boy, they are pricey. Second only to thatching, that would be far and away the most expensive choice for the roof in question.

Let me add that the little mono-pitch roof on the outshot is at only 17 degrees, which puts it below the modern minimum for even slate. There isn't a vernacular material you can use at that slack a pitch.

 

[MikeG]

.....If it is a scrappy repair all wonky, no bond, mortar over the faces etc, it is just an embarassing poor repair, a bit like wearing trousers with a broken zip on the fly to carry on the analogy. I doubt if Mike is worrying about this, he seems to be enjoying it, and probably enjoying seeing all the different suggestions we come up with.....

Two things here......firstly, it depends on what you mean by a poor repair. There isn't mortar all over the face of the bricks, and there is a bond, but very little notion of the horizontal!

Secondly, yes, I'm certainly enjoying the conversation. I work alone, and miss these sort of conversations which would be had within a larger practice. They're important and informative............but above all, they show that there are no absolute right and wrong answers, only choices.

 

[Flyfisher]

Let me add that the little mono-pitch roof on the outshot is at only 17 degrees, which puts it below the modern minimum for even slate. There isn't a vernacular material you can use at that slack a pitch.

Doesn't the local vernacular material depend on the use of the building? In this case, it seems like it might be corrugated sheeting for agricultural buildings. Such material should be fine at 17 degrees or even less.

How about pantiles (the local vernacular for homes) on the main roof and corrugated sheeting (the local vernacular for agricultural buildings) for the subservient outshot as a nod to the agricultural heritage of the building?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Secondly, yes, I'm certainly enjoying the conversation. I work alone, and miss these sort of conversations which would be had within a larger practice. They're important and informative............but above all, they show that there are no absolute right and wrong answers, only choices.

Holy moly that is wonky. Very charming though! The dilemma makes much more sense now you've posted that. Both sides have a strong case!

It's very nice to have you here sharing these interesting issues 8)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Let me add that the little mono-pitch roof on the outshot is at only 17 degrees, which puts it below the modern minimum for even slate. There isn't a vernacular material you can use at that slack a pitch.

Doesn't the local vernacular material depend on the use of the building? In this case, it seems like it might be corrugated sheeting for agricultural buildings. Such material should be fine at 17 degrees or even less.

How about pantiles (the local vernacular for homes) on the main roof and corrugated sheeting (the local vernacular for agricultural buildings) for the subservient outshot as a nod to the agricultural heritage of the building?

Agree.

 

[CliffordPope]

I'd leave it alone as much as possible. Scruffy old things seem to lose a bit of charm if they're tidied up too much.
Might be tempted to re-do any obviously recent ugly patches in the original style but some of those look like they were done a long time ago and have their own interest.

I agree. I like the odd mixture.
Being able to point to some original flintwork in a now predominantly brick building would to me be a plus point.
That's been very tastefully repaired - usually the repairs have been made with old breezeblocks, not very straight, or corrugated iron nailed horizontally.

It's more important that the doors and windows used in the conversion look similarly tasteful, not over-large sheets of plain glass, or heaven forbid, patio doors !

 

[Flyfisher]

That's been very tastefully repaired - usually the repairs have been made with old breezeblocks, not very straight, or corrugated iron nailed horizontally.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Yes, good point - for an agricultural building

 

[MikeG]

Let me add that the little mono-pitch roof on the outshot is at only 17 degrees, which puts it below the modern minimum for even slate. There isn't a vernacular material you can use at that slack a pitch.

Doesn't the local vernacular material depend on the use of the building? In this case, it seems like it might be corrugated sheeting for agricultural buildings. Such material should be fine at 17 degrees or even less.

How about pantiles (the local vernacular for homes) on the main roof and corrugated sheeting (the local vernacular for agricultural buildings) for the subservient outshot as a nod to the agricultural heritage of the building?

The building (and its rooves) pre-date corrugated roof sheets by at least a century, so there was some vernacular roof covering in place prior to the asbestos. There is a remnant of slate on the mono-pitch roof, so I assume it was all slated at one time.

As it happens, and by the same logic, you are very close to what we propose doing. The main roof is going to be slated, and the small roof will have a zinc standing seam roof coloured graphite grey.

 

[MikeG]

Secondly, yes, I'm certainly enjoying the conversation. I work alone, and miss these sort of conversations which would be had within a larger practice. They're important and informative............but above all, they show that there are no absolute right and wrong answers, only choices.

Holy moly that is wonky. Very charming though! The dilemma makes much more sense now you've posted that. Both sides have a strong case!

It's very nice to have you here sharing these interesting issues 8)

Thank you so much. (That's me blushing).

Yep, it's wonky, but I think it really charming, and I'd be sad to lose it. By the time all those patches were removed, and the flint above and to the sides had collapsed out of the wall, replacing those patches with flint would mean rebuilding over half the wall in my view, which would be a pity.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Well then you should steer them to that decision, as some of the finest brains in the land have pitted their wits against this choice, and come to that conclusion.

Cool about the roof. I'm surprised at slate coming out cheaper than hand made pantiles though, I suppose there is slate and slate. Our Swithland was so eye wateringly expensive we all had to sell our kidneys!!

How much is a big thatch roof?

 

[MikeG]

It's a few years since I had a price for thatch, so all I know is its ranking. It's still the most expensive roof covering, even with eastern European materials and labour. And yeah, we won't be using anything as gorgeous as Swithland slate. I expect it will be Spanish, which will look fine in the context.

Like all decisions on the building, guidance is the key. I have had roughly the same sort of conversation with my clients about those brick patches as we have had on here. Some of these things have a long gestation, so it may be a while before we get the result.

 

[MikeG]

I don't know if anyone remembers this thread. It was a discussion, without rights and wrongs, of how to deal with old walls with repairs in them, and it used as an illustration a project that I got involved with a couple of years ago: an old brick and flint barn which we got permission for a client to convert, and then sorted out the working drawings etc. Well, I visited site today to see how things were progressing, and thought you might be interested in this view of the wall we had been talking about:

As you can see, they went for a rather more radical rebuild/ renovation of the wall then I had advocated, but it is done very nicely in lime mortar, and the flint work is hard to fault. In fact, it's hard to see where the repairs are. As with any aesthetic choice, it has lost a bit, and gained a bit. And as I said early on, there is no right answer to this sort of question.

 

[Mickey]

Sadly this is exactly what I thought would happen, sorry I can't help it I think it's lost what made it the thing it was, what tied it to it's landscape. The roof jars, the patio? door jars and I am not even going to mention the arrow slits! I can never understand people who have this aesthetic and buy somewhere like that then hack it about and practically rebuild it (by whatever means) to make it look new, it looks like a new build, it's charm, age and belonging are lost. They might as well have bulldozed it and rebuilt it, the result would have been the same. Sorry!

 

[Andys]

I'm with Mickey
Whoever did that seems to be lacking a sense of humour.

 

[MikeG]

Sadly this is exactly what I thought would happen, sorry I can't help it I think it's lost what made it the thing it was, what tied it to it's landscape. The roof jars, the patio? door jars and I am not even going to mention the arrow slits! I can never understand people who have this aesthetic and buy somewhere like that then hack it about and practically rebuild it (by whatever means) to make it look new, it looks like a new build, it's charm, age and belonging are lost. They might as well have bulldozed it and rebuilt it, the result would have been the same. Sorry!

Absolutely no need to apologise at all. I don't agree that it is so worthless as to be better off demolished, and the roof jarring is only a temporary thing before it weathers in (it's likely the same as the original roof), but other than that I can't really disagree with you. I fought quite hard over this wall, but ultimately it's their money, their building, and their say-so.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hang on, hang on. Since when did we start endorsing inappropriate botch jobs? As far as I can see, the section of wall in MikeG's last photo has been sensitively restored to its original state (OK, except for the glazing of the ventilation slits) using the appropriate materials - ie an honest repair.

The previous state of the wall was quite obviously a mess of any old materials being used to bodge up the various wall failures. Yes, an entirely common practice in agricultural buildings but surely not one to be enthusiastically endorsed by the conservation-minded among us. Imagine if the wall had been listed; would LBC have been granted for repairs using any old bricks that happened to be lying about? I seriously doubt it!

I suppose there might, possibly, be an argument that the bodged repairs were old enough to warrant preservation in their own right but that, I think, would be a very slippery slope indeed. On that basis, how many years would it take for uPVC windows to be deemed worthy of preservation purely on the basis of simply being 'old'?

Perhaps the thread title is misleading? This is not really an example of repairing previous repairs, it's an example of inappropriate bodges being honestly repaired as they should have been in the first place. If that was my property (which is very unlikely as I'm not a fan of barn conversions, but that's a different issue) then I'd probably have done the same thing.

 

[MikeG]

See? It's such an interesting discussin. One dodgy old wall......and a whole lot philosophy emerges from it!