The Grumpy Old Git thread.

[JoceAndChris]

Nigel - wow! How wonderfull it still remains.

Great advice from Flyfisher as usual, I'm so glad all our pics were backed up.

 

[Flyfisher]

Mind you, my solution to the drug problem is to legalise them all, with central control of supply, price etc, and harsh punishments for those who fail to take responsibility for their actions in using them.

An interesting point. We don't seem to hear much about gangs of people causing violent disturbances on a saturday night after smoking illegal cannabis compared with being drunk on legal alcohol.

Legalisation might not only reduce crime but the tax revenues could be the answer to the country's budget problems!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Nigel - wow! How wonderfull it still remains.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/602906

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh, that's just beautiful. Thanks Mr Hughes.

By the way, I do know that's not how to spell "wonderful" but the laptop was nicked so I'm reduced to an iPhone which is a bit diffy. I can't see how to quote using it either.

Legalising heroin - hmm - isn't it immoral to legalise a drug which often kills? And which causes an addiction so powerful that the user stops at nothing to get it?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Mind you, my solution to the drug problem is to legalise them all, with central control of supply, price etc, and harsh punishments for those who fail to take responsibility for their actions in using them.

An interesting point. We don't seem to hear much about gangs of people causing violent disturbances on a saturday night after smoking illegal cannabis compared with being drunk on legal alcohol.

Legalisation might not only reduce crime but the tax revenues could be the answer to the country's budget problems!

Fairtrade Afghan heroin and South American cocaine might help to bring some economic and political stability to problem regions.

And I'm not suggesting any of these things should be taxed to, or priced at, such levels as to make them unattainable luxuries.View attachment 1
If we were being consistent, either alcohol, tobacco and caffiene should all be banned, or all recreational drugs legalised.

 

[philpjuk100]

Oh, that's just beautiful. Thanks Mr Hughes.

By the way, I do know that's not how to spell "wonderful" but the laptop was nicked so I'm reduced to an iPhone which is a bit diffy. I can't see how to quote using it either.

Legalising heroin - hmm - isn't it immoral to legalise a drug which often kills? And which causes an addiction so powerful that the user stops at nothing to get it?

Not advocating the legalising heroin but alcohol and tobaco also kill and are addictive,phil (just off to the "fox" for a quick pint!)

 

[robgil]

the point is Joce it would be controlled better, however its is easier said than done. also the quality of the heroin would be better and safer for the user. society shuns heroin addicts but at the end of the day they are just people with an illness , one that can be cured. if they didn't have to pay drug dealers they wouldn't have to rob people.
the cannabis v's booze debate is an interesting one and personally i feel alcohol does way more damage to society than cannabis ever could, but the money raised from everyone's week end binges means it would never be banned. some pub landlords are really pushing their products as well , some pubs will have little seating because if you are standing you are going to be holding your drink , thus you will drink it faster. stupidly loud music means you wont be able to have a proper conversation , so , you drink faster. could this not be seen as 'pushing' a drug?

Joce i dont want to worry you but do take care to secure your home , the burgler knows you are vulnerable now. a beware of the dog sign , even a bowl of water and food bowl in sight might deter them , security lighting is also a good deterrent as is a visible camera , preferably with a red flashing light on it.

edit , i should have used the quote thingy on there.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Thanks rob, I'm not leaving the house at all until there is a proper security system in place.

Just been chatting with the lady detectives, they now pop in for tea as they like playing with the chicks, who are running round the flower beds. Hearing that chris disapproves of adog and wont finance it, one suggested I get the cleaner not to come for a few weeks , pocket the cash, and when there's enough go and get an Alsatian. Sneaky eh? I like these detectives.

 

[LadyArowana]

Thanks rob, I'm not leaving the house at all until there is a proper security system in place.

Just been chatting with the lady detectives, they now pop in for tea as they like playing with the chicks, who are running round the flower beds. Hearing that chris disapproves of adog and wont finance it, one suggested I get the cleaner not to come for a few weeks , pocket the cash, and when there's enough go and get an Alsatian. Sneaky eh? I like these detectives.

Maybe they could do you a deal on one slightly used police dog, already well trained in the art of baddie detention!

 

[Flyfisher]

If we were being consistent, either alcohol, tobacco and caffiene should all be banned, or all recreational drugs legalised.

Absolutely, but you answered your own point with "If we were being consistent.

Joce's point about drugs being addictive and killing people would be a fairer point if it wasn't for the fact that the quality of illegal drugs is a complete unknown and they are frequently 'cut' with all sorts of nasty things. Then people can overdose when an unexpectedly pure batch appears. Many illegal drugs have perfectly sound clinical uses, but such preparations are of pharmaceutical grade of course. Nicotine is one of the most addictive drugs known to man but, being legal, its availability isn't a problem so it doesn't drive people to antisocial behaviour and is therefore quite manageable.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yes but there are such vast differences between the drugs mentioned above. It's true that alcohol can fuel violence, but it doesn't, typically. If there is violence in a person alcohol encourages it a bit, and if there isn't it doesn't.

But the typical effects of certain drugs are to cause hallucination, visions, paranoia - a completely altered reality that just can't be compared with the effects of a few pints or a smoke of weed. How can you legalise that in all conscience?

I had the chance to spend a week on the strongest morphine we have, rigged up intravenously on a button into my arm. I wouldn't wish the experiences I had on that drug on anyone.

 

[Penners]

The Hawksmore church in that Horgarth etching is still there and worth visiting. Tower was supposedly based on the design for the mausoleum of Hallicarnassis, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. It's just round the corner from the British Museum.

Nigel, I wish you'd stop wandering off-topic and talking about period properties.

Oops - hang on....

 

[robgil]

i wouldn't like to be off my face for a solid week either , on anything.
reality altering drugs such as lsd are not addictive , the habit might be but the drug usually isn't , legalising such a thing might not be such a great idea if it were to become readily available where it isn't already , in sweet shops for instance or on the top shelf in tescos. you could say though that a bottle of whisky is a reality altering drug , mescal isn't too far off either and both these are readily available in both the places stated above.
usually paranoia , schizophrenia etc etc are triggered by drugs , not caused by them.
i would say decriminalising some illegal drugs might be a good way forward ,trying to control them better would almost certainly be a better step to take.
cannabis for instance , if say your doctor were to clear you of suffering from paranoia or schizophrenia and gave you the all clear to use such a drug then why not?
perhaps nicotine and alcohol should also become prescription drugs , although i can imagine the house of lords stopping for a fag break and a tipple before making a decision about that one.

 

[Flyfisher]

I had the chance to spend a week on the strongest morphine we have, rigged up intravenously on a button into my arm. I wouldn't wish the experiences I had on that drug on anyone.

But many people choose to try drugs, even if only once - except it's prohibited and thus fuels a whole illegal industry. There was a report on R4's Today programme earlier this week about the Mexico drug wars and the shockingly high numbers of people being killed by the gangs running the 'business. I think it was 35,000 people in the last 10 years with 2010 expected to exceed last year's toll of 6,500. :shock: And that's just Mexico.

Even if legalised, I'm sure some people would suffer from the effects of drug abuse - just as some people suffer from alcohol and smoking - but is that enough of a reason to ban such things? Especially considering the potential benefits of disbanding illegal drug cartels and all the shocking violence that goes with it, not to mention the amount of crime committed by people to pay inflated black-market prices for substances that are actually quite cheap to produce.

I don't really know the answers to any of this, but there never seems to be any public debate. It just seems to be a bit like the abolition of capital punishment - a given.

Still, where would the creative arts be without things like LSD? I'd say Sgt Pepper's alone is enough justification to legalise drugs. :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

Nigel, I wish you'd stop wandering off-topic and talking about period properties.

I thought this was already an off-topic thread.

 

[Moo]

heroin addicts ... are just people with an illness

... like stroke victims, or arhritics... ?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Flyfisher- on your point that people choose to try drugs, so let them get on with the consequences... A child may choose to put the scissors in it's mouth, do we let it or rush to protect? Surely, so should society protect the vulnerable from a drug that may cause the user to believe they can fly, or believe anything. Especially as the consequences of that delusion could prove disastrous to innocent bystanders. The streets are bad enough without the legalisation of certain class a drugs.

Cannabis, cocaine - maybe.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, I know what you mean. I seem to have a libertarian instinct and faith, misplaced perhaps, that people will generally be responsible. Of course, not all will, but that's life (or Darwinism at work in extreme cases :lol: ).

Inconsistency is another thing that tends to bug me. Gareth has already mentioned this and you've just alluded to it by allowing the possibility of legalising cannabis and/or cocaine. I guess there's a broad spectrum of psychoactive drugs and I'm sure that some should probably remain illegal.

Meanwhile, I'll just stick with a bottle of wine. At least I don't go out looking for a fight afterwards (or not that I can remember :wink: ).

 

[JoceAndChris]

:lol: good plan, me too.

I don't see any inconsistency between whisky being on the supermarket shelves and Tramadol not being. Just as you can buy an air rifle but not a proper gun.

 

[robgil]

heroin addicts ... are just people with an illness

... like stroke victims, or arhritics... ?

no , we dont brush stroke victims under the carpet and pretend they dont exist then when they do appear avoid them like they have leprosy then keep medication from them forcing them into a life of crime.
heroin addiction may not be in the same league as suffering from a stroke but it can be cured , i think a lot of society looks on drug users as criminals when in fact some of these users are just other members of the same society who need some help. I am not saying we should legalise heroin but we do need to change the way we tackle the problem. perhaps through better education or by making substitutes better available? i know of one drug that can take away the physical addiction of heroin but i also know its incredibly hard to get hold of, it requires you to have a nurse 24/7 or family member etc to give you constant care and administer the drug , you need a safe house to stay in among other things. i know this because i watched a friend go down this road , a really good bloke turned into a complete ^$%"? who couldn't be trusted in any instance , especially with money , all his friends tried to help him but with no help from her majesty it was a losing battle we were fighting.
chucking heroin addicts in prison doesn't work either, its easier to get heroin in prison than it is to get it on the streets.
Ooh guys a bottle of wine does sound good , only wish my kidneys were up for it..